why philosophy and why now?

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Peter Kropotkin
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

why philosophy and why now?

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

why philosophy? Why not religion or seeking the baubles
of existence or simply do what millions do today, which
is simply give up and withdraw from thinking about existence...

it is a pretty firm rule of the thumb that the more complicated
a system is, the more complicated the explanation for that
system becomes...you can't explain the movement of the sun
by simple saying, "the sun moves"... that would work for a very
simple explanation of the universe, but in a complicated universe,
you know, the one we live in, any explanation we have for
the movement of the universe, is going to be complicated...
or even any explanation of any aspect of the universe is going
to be complicated....as simple creatures, babies are a very
easy description... but as adults, we become a very complicated
explanation....

and because of this fact, that a complicated existence requires complicated
explanations, we fail to properly explain or understand what existence
means or could mean to us....

would it be ''good'' philosophy or even history if I were to say about
our lives, our existence, ''We are born, we live and then we die"..
that seems to me to be a very incomplete description of the human condition...

and that idea that we must have complicated answers for complicated questions,
means that much of the prior answers for existence that we have in
ism's and ideologies have failed us.. for those answers are for the less
complicated world they lived in....for example, the American idea of
"Manifest destiny" (is the idea that the United States is destined- by god,
it advocates believed, to expand it dominion and spread democracy
and capitalism across the entire North American continent)
is now considered to a rather old fashion idea... but in certain circles,
namely conservative ones, that this idea still lives.... but it ignores
the fact that this is 2023, not 1830... but it is way to
simple to actually explain anything...but when it was purposed way back
in the 1830's, it made sense and was a feasible idea.... back when
life wasn't so complicated...

it is a statement of fact that "we live in a complicated world"
and thus we must have complicated answers for this question
of existence in 2023....

and a look at the solutions offered by the right, are simple
answers for a less complex/complicated world.. one of the
routine solutions offered by the right is to return to god,
focus on religion and god, as a solution to our complicated world
today...

but the fact is we live in a complicated, secular world...
easy answers will not work in a complicated world...
and therein lies the point of philosophy in the modern world..
to work out answers that are appropriate to our complicated world....

and by their very nature, complicated answers do not lend
themselves to single answers.. in other words, the solution
to what ails us today, can't be found in a simple answer like,
''seek out god".... or "put people into prison" simple answers
to complicated questions....

so where do we begin? How about here?

what is the point or purpose of life/existence?

as it is a complicated world, we cannot offer up simple answers like
try to "get to heaven to worship god forever".. the simple
example is, the passive contemplation of the universe or of god,
is an answer that no longer bears any fruit...

the simple matter of fact is that a passive response or answer
to the universe complications can no longer be acceptable....
to be passive in our world means to be helpless in the face
of an active universe....our engagement with the universe
must match the universe engagement with us... force is met
with force.. that is how we keep an equal universe...
with no one side getting the better of the other side....

the formula is quite simple... 1 + 1 = 2... keeping equality is
the name of the game.... the key part is the equal sign...
the two sides must remain equal... which means our pushback to
the universe must match, equally, with the push from the universe....

and thus ends the first lesson, we must hold to the equality of
the universe, in all aspects, politically, socially, economically,
and philosophically..... and the relationship between the
individual and the society/state, must, must have some
equality to it, it must remain equal...Kropotkin, this sounds
all very theoretical.... where is the meat in any of this?

if the state/society threatens us, then we must push back with
equal force...and today, the society/state threats come from
the right, the right's attempt to recreate Nazi Germany, cannot be
dismissed or have an passive reaction to it... force must be used
equally to keep the peace..... to maintain balance between the
forces at play in our world....if one side go's extreme, the other
side, to maintain balance, must react with equal and opposite force...
the equation must be equal or the society/state will be unbalance
and that leads to social/economic/political problems that become
harder and harder to solve as time goes by....

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

ok, next comes an understanding of where we are,
philosophically.... the "Enlightenment" was an attempt to
free ourselves from the forces that tied us to
beliefs and ideas that prevented us from becoming who we are..
we were forced to hold believes and ideas and ism's regardless
if we agreed or not... the idea that monarchies, the king,
was not only the natural thing to do politically, morally
and socially... there was no alternative to a Monarch available
to us within a society or state.....today, today we have plenty
of alternatives to us socially, politically and economically....
this understanding that we have a choice to us, in regards to
our political, social and economic selves has allowed us to
seek out what system is actually best for us, as human beings...

as education is a promotion of values within that society/state,
the values that have been promoted in America and the western world,
has been skewered toward certain values and beliefs, a belief
in certain systems, be it economically or politically... for example,
the only value/system that is taught today is the all mighty faith
in capitalism...that there is no other choice outside of capitalism is
a faith base system...that there cannot be any other choice outside
of the capitalistic system is axiom and a given... but in fact, we
have several different economic systems to choose from,
from market-based economies to planned economies,
from capitalism to the hunter-gatherer system, to communism,
to socialism, to feudalism to statism, mercantilism to mutualism,
to name a few possible economic systems available to us,
plus we also have mixed economic systems, that combine two
or more of these other systems...and we also have several
political systems to choose from, from democracy to a monarchy
to anarchism to oligarchy to totalitarianism, to a republic and many
more possible political systems available to us..
and the missed part is the fact that we can pick and choose between
any possible economic system to any political system...we can have
a dictatorship and still have a capitalistic system...or we can
have a communistic economic system to a democratic political system....
to have one economic system doesn't preclude us from having another
political system...the two systems, the economic and political,
can be joined or separated by any number of factors...
and how does philosophy fit into this?

By provided us with the values and beliefs that allow us to
choose an economic and political system that makes sense given
the values and beliefs we hold....if we hold to freedom as a primary
value, then we can agree that for that value, capitalism, (despite its
flaws) still might be the best economic system for that value..
and politically then, we might hold to democracy as being the
best political system for the value/belief of freedom...
but what if we hold to safety/security as our primary values,
then capitalism/democracy may not be our best choice...
then we might turn to a dictatorship as our primary political
system, as conservatives have done so, and in promoting leaders
like Putin and his lapdog, IQ45, we can see this drive for safety/security
in action as in the attempt to turn America into a dictatorship, with
political leaders like IQ45 and DeSantis leading the way...

our values/beliefs dictate our political and social and economic
systems we hold...but what if our values/beliefs are not
accepted or promoted by our political/economic systems?

the balance between the two, the individual and the society,
is off, and in America's case, we are wildly off base between
the values and beliefs we hold and our economic/political
system in place....the political belief that "all men are created equal"
is not evident within our economic system today...
and this conflict has created widespread issues within America today...
the equation/equality between the political and the economic must be
returned or we face, as we do today, conflict within the American
state/society....

this massive economic inequality between the very rich and the majority
of our country is an equation that is out of whack... it brings us to
a state of one side of the equation is far more powerful than the other side
and that unequal equation is threatening the very stability of America today...

the fact is that part of the reason America has been so stable up to this
point in time has been the relative equality between the wealthy
and the rest of America... up until the Civil War, there was no
great divide in wealth in America...everyone was in roughly the
same economic class... the Civil War was the start of the
massive income inequality that threatens us today...

history shows us what happens in societies with income
inequalities like ours... Ancient Greece has several revolutions
based on the division between the wealthy class and the middle class/
working class...income inequality has driven much of the civil wars
and rebellions around the world... the French Revolution is one such
example as is the Russian revolution of 1917... income inequality
drove those revolutions as much, if not more, than any other factor....
we cannot be blind to historic factors that have lead to revolutions
and rebellions around the world since the beginning of time....

and America is closer to such a fate as open revolution since
America has a much greater income inequality problem than
Europe or Asia...one could describe the MAGA revolution
as being, in part, an attack on the income inequality that is
present in America today...but being a conservative movement,
they are aiming at the wrong targets with the wrong weapons....

we can use philosophy to understand the values and beliefs that
we should be holding and seeking.... what values should we
be holding today, right here, right now?

it depends on what we see as our goal or purpose in the universe
today.....but as of right now, we are just aimlessly wondering about
the universe with no idea or plan about who we are and what we
should be doing....the idea of the Kantian questions,
"what am I to do?" What should I believe in?" "what can I know?"
are questions that may, may point us to possible answers....
in fact, part of the failure today lays in our inability to just
stop and think about what it means to be human and that
meaning will offer us a goal or purpose to drive for.....
we are much too busy to reflect on the point and meaning
of being human....
there is no point in constantly being busy, we must slow down
and reflect on what it means to be human... we must engage in
our senses and reason to make sense of being human....

when will you stop and reflect on what it means to be human?
or are you too busy to even have time to reflect on what it
means to be human? is life distracting you from an engagement
with the meaning of being human?

if not now, when and if not you, who?

Kropotkin
ThinkOfOne
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:29 pm

Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm
As usual, you make some good points. And as usual you seem to lose your way.

To paraphrase Oliver Wendall Holmes:
Simplicity on the near side of complexity is worthless.
Simplicity on the far side of complexity is priceless.
An important concept that needs to be derived from the above is that though of much more value than simplicity on the near side, complexity is also of limited value.

In general "the right" lives on the near side of complexity. Most are mired in simplistic thinking. All have simplistic views as their foundation. Even those who are not mired in simplistic thinking merely add complexity on top of simplistic views. As such, no matter how complex the thinking, the end result is simplicity on the near side of complexity and is worthless.

In general "the left" is mired in complexity . This is also true of the bulk of your OP - and your OPs in general. While leaps and bounds ahead of simplicity on the near side of complexity, it is of limited value. In general, this is also true of so much of "philosophy".

Ultimately this is the divide between "the right" and "the left".

Try rereading your OP with the above in mind. Hopefully you'll rethink it. If you do, please post it on this thread. BTW you ultimately seem to conclude with simplicity on the near side of complexity.
Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by Age »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm why philosophy? Why not religion or seeking the baubles
of existence or simply do what millions do today, which
is simply give up and withdraw from thinking about existence...

it is a pretty firm rule of the thumb that the more complicated
a system is, the more complicated the explanation for that
system becomes...you can't explain the movement of the sun
by simple saying, "the sun moves"... that would work for a very
simple explanation of the universe, but in a complicated universe,
But the Universe is not complicated at all. Well not for some of us anyway.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm you know, the one we live in, any explanation we have for
the movement of the universe, is going to be complicated...
LOL Talk about making an assumption and jumping to a conclusion, based on a preexisting presumption, which is obviously VERY Wrong and Incorrect. Well, again, to some of us.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm or even any explanation of any aspect of the universe is going
to be complicated....as simple creatures, babies are a very
easy description... but as adults, we become a very complicated
explanation....
WHERE do these VERY DISTORTED conclusions come from, EXACTLY?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm and because of this fact, that a complicated existence requires complicated
explanations, we fail to properly explain or understand what existence
means or could mean to us....
Wrong, AGAIN.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm would it be ''good'' philosophy or even history if I were to say about
our lives, our existence, ''We are born, we live and then we die"..
that seems to me to be a very incomplete description of the human condition...
But this does NOT conclude your CLAIM here correct in ANY way.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm and that idea that we must have complicated answers for complicated questions,
means that much of the prior answers for existence that we have in
ism's and ideologies have failed us.. for those answers are for the less
complicated world they lived in....for example, the American idea of
"Manifest destiny" (is the idea that the United States is destined- by god,
it advocates believed, to expand it dominion and spread democracy
and capitalism across the entire North American continent)
is now considered to a rather old fashion idea... but in certain circles,
namely conservative ones, that this idea still lives.... but it ignores
the fact that this is 2023, not 1830... but it is way to
simple to actually explain anything...but when it was purposed way back
in the 1830's, it made sense and was a feasible idea.... back when
life wasn't so complicated...
LOL 'Life', Itself, NEVER changes from being simple to complicated, NOR from complicated to simple. 'Life' JUST IS what 'It' IS. Which 'you', human beings, are VERY SLOWLY evolving into come-to FULLY UNDERSTAND, and KNOW, like we do.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm it is a statement of fact that "we live in a complicated world"

LOL Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how DELUDED some human beings REALLY WERE, back in the old days when this was being written.

and thus we must have complicated answers for this question
of existence in 2023....
If that is what you BELIEVE you MUST HAVE, then that IS what you WILL GET.

For the rest of us we have some 'thing' VERY DIFFERENT.

Also, and by the way, following your "logic" here 'existence' in EVERY following year WULL GET more and more complicated to UNDERSTAND and REASON. Which, the ABSURDITY OF speaks for itself.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm and a look at the solutions offered by the right, are simple
answers for a less complex/complicated world.. one of the
routine solutions offered by the right is to return to god,
focus on religion and god, as a solution to our complicated world
today...
But the 'world' has ALWAYS been the SAME and ALWAYS WILL BE. Which, by the way, is NEVER complicated AT ALL.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pmbut the fact is we live in a complicated, secular world...
easy answers will not work in a complicated world...
and therein lies the point of philosophy in the modern world..
to work out answers that are appropriate to our complicated world....
What is the difference between 'appropriate answers', 'complicated answers', and 'simple answers', EXACTLY?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm and by their very nature, complicated answers do not lend
themselves to single answers.. in other words, the solution
to what ails us today, can't be found in a simple answer like,
''seek out god".... or "put people into prison" simple answers
to complicated questions....
Will you provide an example of a so-called 'complicated question's?

If no, then why not?

so where do we begin? How about here?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm what is the point or purpose of life/existence?
To make Itself better. BUT to LEARN and/or KNOW how to do this EXACTLY, one needs to LEARN and UNDERSTAND the meaning of Life, FIRST.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm as it is a complicated world, we cannot offer up simple answers like
try to "get to heaven to worship god forever".. the simple
example is, the passive contemplation of the universe or of god,
is an answer that no longer bears any fruit...
SO, what answer/answers DO 'bear any fruit', EXACTLY?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm the simple matter of fact is that a passive response or answer
to the universe complications can no longer be acceptable....
to be passive in our world means to be helpless in the face
of an active universe....our engagement with the universe
must match the universe engagement with us... force is met
with force.. that is how we keep an equal universe...
with no one side getting the better of the other side....
Wrong, AGAIN.

Thee is NO ACTUAL 'force' in Nature/the Universe. Although 'you', human beings, appear to live to 'TRY TO' 'force' 'things', like for example, 'the world' is complicated'.

Which is, by the way, just an EXCUSE USED when someone does NOT YET KNOW the answer to some 'thing'.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pm the formula is quite simple... 1 + 1 = 2... keeping equality is
the name of the game.... the key part is the equal sign...
the two sides must remain equal... which means our pushback to
the universe must match, equally, with the push from the universe....
But there is NO 'force' from the Universe. There IS, however, an ENERGY, which one could FLOW WITH or 'TRY TO' fight or force AGAINST.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pmand thus ends the first lesson, we must hold to the equality of
the universe, in all aspects, politically, socially, economically,
LOL Two of these 'things' ACTUAL go AGAINST the Universe, Itself. And, the third is NOT YET FULLY UNDERSTOOD, and until 'it' IS will keep going AGAINST Nature/ the Universe ALSO.

I will let you decide which one that IS.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:44 pmand philosophically..... and the relationship between the
individual and the society/state, must, must have some
equality to it, it must remain equal...Kropotkin, this sounds
all very theoretical.... where is the meat in any of this?

if the state/society threatens us, then we must push back with
equal force...and today, the society/state threats come from
the right, the right's attempt to recreate Nazi Germany, cannot be
dismissed or have an passive reaction to it... force must be used
equally to keep the peace..... to maintain balance between the
forces at play in our world....if one side go's extreme, the other
side, to maintain balance, must react with equal and opposite force...
the equation must be equal or the society/state will be unbalance
and that leads to social/economic/political problems that become
harder and harder to solve as time goes by....

Kropotkin
Here is ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of how these people would say just about ANY 'thing' in order to 'TRY TO' back up and support what they ALREADY BELIEVE is true.

What this one BELIEVES is true here is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS.

By the way, WHY do you write with staggered sentences like the way you do?
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Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by Agent Smith »

5 = 1 + 4
5 = 0 + 5
5 = 2 + 3

We haven't even started. One line is short ...
alan1000
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:03 am

Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by alan1000 »

Hypothesis: Kropotkin is an AI program. Not a human being. Primary giveaway: verbose and diffuse reasoning processes, where every sentence leads more or less logically to the next, but characterised by a complete failure to articulate the main argument in a concise, conclusive and definitive way: and certainly not in a single sentence!
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Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
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Re: why philosophy and why now?

Post by Agent Smith »

"What in the world are you doin'?" Kim cried out, puzzled by the spectacle in front of him. Linda was pushin', pullin', a bloody grand piano, her T shirt was drenched with sweat, she was pantin' like she'd just ran a marathon nd she looked exhausted. "What does it look like I'm doin'? Don't you have eyes?" Linda shouted back. "I can see what you're doin', obviously, duh! But why? Where are you takin' the piano? You could've asked for help, but apparently you didn't. From the looks of it you've been draggin' the piano for hours, in the heat! You can put wheels on that thing, you knew that, right?!" "Yessss! Of course I knew that genius!" Linda hissed. "Well then why? Is this some kinda self-mortification deal you have goin' on there? Has Zakran been talkin' to you?" "Nyet! Wrong!" Linda replied and went on, "Well, if you must know Mr. Curiosity Rover, I know what I'm doing, but what I haven't the foggiest about is why!!"
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