Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

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Flannel Jesus
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:09 am
I think you don't understand either position. You want hard determinism, but still insist that you are a compatibilist.

This is the thing you said which is a misuse of the term. Do you see it?
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attofishpi
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:13 am You are still misusing the term "hard determinism". "Hard determinism" is the explicit belief that free will does not exist. Compatibilists are not hard determinists, by definition. Hard determinists and compatibilists are 2 different types of determinists, because they believe different things about the relationship of determinism to the concept of free will.
WHERE on this forum are you getting the idea that I think HARD DETERMINISM = COMPATIBILISM?
I'm not. Hard determinism literally isn't part of this conversation at all. You shouldn't use it at all.
You are now coming across as one of the stupid people on the forum.

Why should the concept of "hard determinism" not be part of the the conversation within the thought experiment of Boony's Room?
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Hard determinism presupposes a specific answer to the question of if we have free will. That answer is: no.

Determinism, without the word "hard" in it, does not.

Determinism, and hard determinism, both contain the proposition that the laws of physics allow for one possible future only from a given starting condition.

So the word you're looking for, most of the time you say "hard determinism", is just "determinism". Without the "hard".
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

So for example this previous quote of yours:
I think you don't understand either position. You want hard determinism, but still insist that you are a compatibilist.
Remove the word "hard" and this suddenly makes a lot more sense
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Sculptor
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:41 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:45 pm

Is your idea of compatibilism:- That conscious minds only have free will where things of an ethical nature are concerned within a determined universe?
No it means that the expression of the will is determined by what and who you are. Being "free" is simply not being compelled by outside forces.
We make the future as deterministic agents.




Determined by a conscious mind where ethics are concerned or more, does the human mind have free will on many other levels?




I am talking RE 'diverge' - that both the Boony's - and rather early on in this experiment would be NON mirrored.

Are the two Boony's identical, what is different about the two Boonys?

One could write a list (I gotta go to nod nod land)
The two booney's are each determined by the fact that they are both identical boonies.
I cannot see who they could possibly DIVERGE, since they both think of the same solutions at the same time.
Can you say how you think they might change their actions so that they go different ways?
Yes. We need to consider that although each conscious mind were instantiated identically within an identically mirrored situation, that they still have individual, seperate minds.
If they get to the stage of pausing, talking, pausing - realising something of a diabolical situation, they might decide to think of a random thought.
HOW??????
Each mind is still individual, within a brain that has more logical gateways than atoms in the entire universe (apparently) - AND consciousncess is operating at the quantum level where indeterminacy is at play.
They are separate but they are the same. They will have the same random thought.

So eventually - they will break off into their own individual will of thought.

If they didn't then hard determinism would be accurate, that individual conscious minds have no free will.
True.
There is no free will outside determinism.
And that is what the examples shows.
Unless you are trying to say that when people who believe in radical freewill are actually claiming that freewill is just random?

I don't think they really want that.

IN any event I'm not sure you can have a random event.
We know that things are caused. Maybe randomness is something so complicated that it is difficult to predict. When you toss a coin you would have to count the number of spins before it hits the table - but of you could you would be able to predict the result surely?
So the problem is; can there be a truly random event?
And even if there were; would that really satisfy those that want to believe in radical free will.
The point being if free will relies on a random event; what use is it??
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:00 am So for example this previous quote of yours:
I think you don't understand either position. You want hard determinism, but still insist that you are a compatibilist.
Remove the word "hard" and this suddenly makes a lot more sense
It's been very apparent over the years that the people with little nouse, are the ones that only use quote when they get to have any context misconstrued within a debate.

WELL DONE! :mrgreen:
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I don't really understand why you've gone hostile towards me to be honest. I'm not perceiving this conversation the same way you are. I don't feel hostile towards you my brother.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:05 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:41 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:15 pm
No it means that the expression of the will is determined by what and who you are. Being "free" is simply not being compelled by outside forces.
We make the future as deterministic agents.


The two booney's are each determined by the fact that they are both identical boonies.
I cannot see who they could possibly DIVERGE, since they both think of the same solutions at the same time.
Can you say how you think they might change their actions so that they go different ways?
Yes. We need to consider that although each conscious mind were instantiated identically within an identically mirrored situation, that they still have individual, seperate minds.
If they get to the stage of pausing, talking, pausing - realising something of a diabolical situation, they might decide to think of a random thought.
HOW??????
Each mind is still individual, within a brain that has more logical gateways than atoms in the entire universe (apparently) - AND consciousncess is operating at the quantum level where indeterminacy is at play.
They are separate but they are the same. They will have the same random thought.

So eventually - they will break off into their own individual will of thought.

If they didn't then hard determinism would be accurate, that individual conscious minds have no free will.
True.
There is no free will outside determinism.
And that is what the examples shows.
Unless you are trying to say that when people who believe in radical freewill are actually claiming that freewill is just random?

I don't think they really want that.

IN any event I'm not sure you can have a random event.
We know that things are caused. Maybe randomness is something so complicated that it is difficult to predict. When you toss a coin you would have to count the number of spins before it hits the table - but of you could you would be able to predict the result surely?
So the problem is; can there be a truly random event?
And even if there were; would that really satisfy those that want to believe in radical free will.
The point being if free will relies on a random event; what use is it??
Well then. You are a hard determinist - there is NO free will to be compatible within a determined universe.

..and yet I assure you, if I placed two IDENTICAL computers inside the room, and clicked a button for a random number between mmm 1 and a 1,000,000, they are extremely unlikely to have the same result!

Yet you think, that two seperate conscious minds could not think anything different EVER within this thought experiment!

YOU ARE A HARD DETERMINIST - if that is your only conclusion.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

This is a perfect example of what I'm saying. That's not what hard determinism means.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

This conversation needs a glossary:

Determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future.

Hard determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND that means there's no free will

Compatibilism: an alternative framing of free will, that leaves it compatible with determinism

Compatibilist determinist: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND there's still space for free will

Sculptor, though I can't speak for him, looks to me to be a compatibilist determinist and not a hard determinist.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:10 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:05 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:41 am

Yes. We need to consider that although each conscious mind were instantiated identically within an identically mirrored situation, that they still have individual, seperate minds.
If they get to the stage of pausing, talking, pausing - realising something of a diabolical situation, they might decide to think of a random thought.
HOW??????
Each mind is still individual, within a brain that has more logical gateways than atoms in the entire universe (apparently) - AND consciousncess is operating at the quantum level where indeterminacy is at play.
They are separate but they are the same. They will have the same random thought.

So eventually - they will break off into their own individual will of thought.

If they didn't then hard determinism would be accurate, that individual conscious minds have no free will.
True.
There is no free will outside determinism.
And that is what the examples shows.
Unless you are trying to say that when people who believe in radical freewill are actually claiming that freewill is just random?

I don't think they really want that.

IN any event I'm not sure you can have a random event.
We know that things are caused. Maybe randomness is something so complicated that it is difficult to predict. When you toss a coin you would have to count the number of spins before it hits the table - but of you could you would be able to predict the result surely?
So the problem is; can there be a truly random event?
And even if there were; would that really satisfy those that want to believe in radical free will.
The point being if free will relies on a random event; what use is it??
Well then. You are a hard determinist - there is NO free will to be compatible within a determined universe.
Tutut - you resort to name calling!!

NO. I am a compatibilist. We all can act freely as long as no one is pointing a gun at our heads.
We are all in a state of change. We change according to many thing; exogenously and endogenously.
We partly make our own futures, through endogenous causes - that is the will.

..and yet I assure you, if I placed two IDENTICAL computers inside the room, and clicked a button for a random number between mmm 1 and a 1,000,000, they are extremely unlikely to have the same result!
Wrong.
They will have the same result.
Computers use a combination of a list of numbers and the time stamp to generate the RND function. The timestamp directs the computer to select from that list. If the computers are switched on at exactly the same time then they will pick the same number.
I know this because when I was a programmer we had to initiate a delay into the RND to get a new result. If the program used the RND at the first line of code then you could guarantee the same result each time.

Yet you think, that two seperate conscious minds could not think anything different EVER within this thought experiment!

YOU ARE A HARD DETERMINIST - if that is your only conclusion.
You are avoiding answering the questions I set, because they challenge your own viewpoint: your desire to be free. You are determined to avoid the truth.
If you want to continue, then return to my previous post and answer it, rather than just call me names.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:18 am This conversation needs a glossary:

Determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future.

Hard determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND that means there's no free will

Compatibilism: an alternative framing of free will, that leaves it compatible with determinism

Compatibilist determinist: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND there's still space for free will

Sculptor, though I can't speak for him, looks to me to be a compatibilist determinist and not a hard determinist.
No this just reflects your own prejudice.
The whole thread is a discussion about the definition of those terms.


Name calling is not a way to understand what is going on.

THough you are right about me. It is more important to think about how I get to this position.
Philosophy is not religion. You do not just accept a position dogmatically. I did not arrive at my position through choice or cant. I'm not on the team, where I want to believe a thing, so fight for that position.
Last edited by Sculptor on Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:18 am This conversation needs a glossary:

Determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future.

Hard determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND that means there's no free will

Compatibilism: an alternative framing of free will, that leaves it compatible with determinism

Compatibilist determinist: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND there's still space for free will

Sculptor, though I can't speak for him, looks to me to be a compatibilist determinist and not a hard determinist.
No this just reflects your own prejudice.
Please correct me where I went wrong. I'd like to change to be correct.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:22 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:18 am This conversation needs a glossary:

Determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future.

Hard determinism: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND that means there's no free will

Compatibilism: an alternative framing of free will, that leaves it compatible with determinism

Compatibilist determinist: the belief that there is only 1 possible future, AND there's still space for free will

Sculptor, though I can't speak for him, looks to me to be a compatibilist determinist and not a hard determinist.
No this just reflects your own prejudice.
Please correct me where I went wrong. I'd like to change to be correct.
No this just reflects your own prejudice.
The whole thread is a discussion about the definition of those terms.


Name calling is not a way to understand what is going on.

THough you are right about me. It is more important to think about how I get to this position.
Philosophy is not religion. You do not just accept a position dogmatically. I did not arrive at my position through choice or cant. I'm not on the team, where I want to believe a thing, so fight for that position.
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Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

For example.

Determinism.

The future does not exist, so it is not really a good representation of determinism to say that it means a belief that there is only one future.
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