Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I wanted to dive into more detail on something I said:
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:29 am Well, that's dandy, since that where I was sitting in my compatilbilist head.

So, the question remains, how do you permit a conscious brain (mind) making choices 'freely' within a determined universe?

How do you comprehend the will of a conscious mind, the brain matter where the universe is determined. In such a scenario one cannot be 100% determined universe and 100% random.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:31 am Making choices freely means being in control. Being in control relies on determinism, control is lessened by randomness.

You can only have free will because of determinism.
Someone somewhere else said "compatibilism is just a semantic shift" as an insult. But she's right! It is a semantic shift, and a useful one.

Free will, they say, is where responsibility comes from. We can't be held responsible without free will, they say.

Free will is multiple things, all rolled up into one. It's a feeling or an intuition, the feeling that "I could have done differently". It's also used to describe a state of affairs where you aren't being coerced against your will, at gun point, say.

The problem with free will, to me, is that people take these feelings and intuitions and decide that free will has to be defined in such a way as to be incompatible with physical determinism. They take "Free" to mean "free from determinism". But I don't think that's necessary at all - let me give an illustrative example.

A guy is driving down the street. He chooses to serve into a family and kills them all.

A different guy, an old man, is driving down a different street. He has a stroke in his car, he loses control, he swerves into a family and kills them all.

The first guy, they say, swerved into them of his own free will. He was in control, and he's morally culpable - he needs to be separated from society because he's dangerous.

The second guy, they say, suffered a stroke and lost control of his body. He's not morally culpable because he didn't choose of his own free will to do that. He should maybe lose his license, but we ought not throw him in prison for a terrible thing that he couldn't have foreseen or controlled.

So at this point, I have in my mind a triangle of ideas

Control
Moral culpability
Free will

I'm seeing a very tight knit relationship between these things. An action can only be done of your own free will if you had control. You can only be morally responsible if you have free will. And "free" doesn't mean "the will has freedom from determinism", it now starts to mean "the will has freedom to control the body, to determine the actions of the body". We are switching "free" from "freedom from" to "freedom to" - this is the crux of the mental shift.

Control, to me, starts to be synonymous with free will at this point.

So then now let's go back to people's intuition, that determinism is counter to free will. The extent to which a system isn't deterministic, it is random. So what relationship does randomness have with control?

Well, from the old man's perceptive, the stroke was pretty random. It was a random, unpredictable event that happened to him, that took control away from him, that took control of his body away from his will. He didn't will to run these people over, but control was taken from him, by randomness.

Obviously this is an extreme example, and calling it "random" here might not be the full truth - just because he couldn't predict it doesn't mean it wasn't part of a deterministic universe.

But when we look at hypothetical examples with real randomness, I don't see any place where adding in randomness adds control to the person, but I do see places where adding randomness takes away control from the person. We can go into that if you want, but I'll leave it for a later exercise.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:31 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:09 am
Our consciousness is not computable - (therefore not programmable) according to Sir Roger Penrose.

For example:- If I was to punch down hard with a hammer onto someones hand, everything about the action within each mind's consciousness is not computable. Although, personally I think qualia sensation is the non-computable part. Likely within the brain, there is much going on that IS computable, however certainly our senses, how we feel which is a key driver of our WILL, I would agree with Penrose is not computable, cannot be broken down to logic of mathematics, computer algorithms.

So, our consciousness has a will that is based on something which is non-deterministic. For something to be plausibly determined would require to be at least computable, conscious qualia sensation is not.

I don't think I have any reason to agree with any bit of that. Consciousness is not computable - I don't know that to be the case. Because it's not computable it's non deterministic - I don't know that to be the case.
Do you understand that if something is not computable, it cannot be determined?

Sure, you cannot be certain that consciousness to the level of qualia sensation, of our feelings is not computable but I'd be very interested for any equation within the known universe that can represent the feeling you experience if you scratch the back of your hand.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:11 pm Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?
They keep mirroring each other and want to break free..

They have an idea.
You are talking as if they have come to an agreement, rather than some crazy mirrored effect.

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 amThrow a dice and who ever gets the best score has to lie still for a five minutes whilst the other jumps on the spot for 5 minutes. They argue that this will place them on different deterministic trajectories.

THey both throw a 4. They laugh.
They throw again: 6 and 6
They say let's try again....
They both throw a 1.
No matter how many times they throw they always throw the same number because their muscles and the amount of effort they throw into each throw is identical, because they are identical.

It does not matter if they have free will, or think they have free will, or are perfectly determined by cause and effect.
Because their will is based on what they want to do, and that has to be something to do with who and what you are at any given moment.
Well, for the contemplation of the situation, I'd agree that at the outset their instances would be identical, but as discussed in the other thread, they would diverge in their actions, imo rather early on in the experiment.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pm
Do you understand that if something is not computable, it cannot be determined?

No I don't. I'm not aware of "non computable things" as an area of study at all. I'm not even sure what it means for something to be non computable.
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pmSure, you cannot be certain that consciousness to the level of qualia sensation, of our feelings is not computable but I'd be very interested for any equation within the known universe that can represent the feeling you experience if you scratch the back of your hand.
I don't think the leap from "I don't know how to program consciousness" to "consciousness is unprogrammable" is justified. Or from "I can't conceive of how it could be programmed" to "it is unprogrammable". I think those leaps are significant and worth questioning.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8480
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Sculptor »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:11 pm Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?
They keep mirroring each other and want to break free..

They have an idea.
You are talking as if they have come to an agreement, rather than some crazy mirrored effect.
THey both have exactly the same idea at the same time. How could they disagree?

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 amThrow a dice and who ever gets the best score has to lie still for a five minutes whilst the other jumps on the spot for 5 minutes. They argue that this will place them on different deterministic trajectories.

THey both throw a 4. They laugh.
They throw again: 6 and 6
They say let's try again....
They both throw a 1.
No matter how many times they throw they always throw the same number because their muscles and the amount of effort they throw into each throw is identical, because they are identical.

It does not matter if they have free will, or think they have free will, or are perfectly determined by cause and effect.
Because their will is based on what they want to do, and that has to be something to do with who and what you are at any given moment.
Well, for the contemplation of the situation, I'd agree that at the outset their instances would be identical, but as discussed in the other thread, they would diverge in their actions, imo rather early on in the experiment.
NO they would not diverge. There would be no reason to.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:53 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pm
Do you understand that if something is not computable, it cannot be determined?

No I don't. I'm not aware of "non computable things" as an area of study at all. I'm not even sure what it means for something to be non computable.
From my limited understanding, pretty much everything around us in reality can be measured, thus represented mathematically. Something that is non-computable, such as the qualia sensation you experience when you scratch the back of your hand, cannot be represented mathematically or within any algorithm.

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:53 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pmSure, you cannot be certain that consciousness to the level of qualia sensation, of our feelings is not computable but I'd be very interested for any equation within the known universe that can represent the feeling you experience if you scratch the back of your hand.
I don't think the leap from "I don't know how to program consciousness" to "consciousness is unprogrammable" is justified. Or from "I can't conceive of how it could be programmed" to "it is unprogrammable". I think those leaps are significant and worth questioning.
It's not about "I don't know how to" so much as, it is NOT possible - to "program consciousness", that is to say, one cannot create consciousness via an algorithm.
Last edited by attofishpi on Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:12 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:57 amThrow a dice and who ever gets the best score has to lie still for a five minutes whilst the other jumps on the spot for 5 minutes. They argue that this will place them on different deterministic trajectories.

THey both throw a 4. They laugh.
They throw again: 6 and 6
They say let's try again....
They both throw a 1.
No matter how many times they throw they always throw the same number because their muscles and the amount of effort they throw into each throw is identical, because they are identical.

It does not matter if they have free will, or think they have free will, or are perfectly determined by cause and effect.
Because their will is based on what they want to do, and that has to be something to do with who and what you are at any given moment.
Well, for the contemplation of the situation, I'd agree that at the outset their instances would be identical, but as discussed in the other thread, they would diverge in their actions, imo rather early on in the experiment.
NO they would not diverge. There would be no reason to.
I thought you were a compatibilist. Are you not here declaring that the two Boony's conscious minds are somehow locked into perfect synchronisation for so long as they survive, to me this could only account for hard determinism as an accurate account of individual conscious minds.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:28 amIt's not about "I don't know how to" so much as, it is NOT possible - to "program consciousness", that is to say, one cannot create consciousness via an algorithm.
Right but how do you know that? Do could you discover something is non computable?
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:32 am
I thought you were a compatibilist. Are you not here declaring that the two Boony's conscious minds are somehow locked into perfect synchronisation for so long as they survive, to me this could only account for hard determinism as an accurate account of individual conscious minds.
I don't think you've quite grokled what compatibilism is. Compatibilism IS compatible with hard determinism. That's what it's called compatibilism.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:46 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:28 amIt's not about "I don't know how to" so much as, it is NOT possible - to "program consciousness", that is to say, one cannot create consciousness via an algorithm.
Right but how do you know that? Do could you discover something is non computable?
You're English is a tad muddled, but yes, not everything is computable, including the feeling you sense when you bang your big toe.

As far as I am aware philosophy seeks answers but appears to have close none...it seem more by way of insisting that things are done rationally. So it analyses reality and what it can comprehend logically at any given point in time. Thus far, you banging your big toe and your sensation of pain, is not computable in any way.

Flannel Jesus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:48 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:32 am
I thought you were a compatibilist. Are you not here declaring that the two Boony's conscious minds are somehow locked into perfect synchronisation for so long as they survive, to me this could only account for hard determinism as an accurate account of individual conscious minds.
I don't think you've quite grokled what compatibilism is. Compatibilism IS compatible with hard determinism. That's what it's called compatibilism.
As far as I am aware, hard determinism has no place for the concept that conscious minds have free will.

Please correct me if I and where I am wrong.
Last edited by attofishpi on Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

You are wrong when it comes to compatibilists. I'll go find some light reading for you. I thought I made the case well enough of why hard determinism doesn't result in less free will than a world with some randomness (even if I happen to believe that some randomness exists), but perhaps a more prestigious source of information could make a better case than me.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:21 am You are wrong when it comes to compatibilists. I'll go find some light reading for you. I thought I made the case well enough of why hard determinism doesn't result in less free will than a world with some randomness (even if I happen to believe that some randomness exists), but perhaps a more prestigious source of information could make a better case than me.
No NO!!

Just explain in your words how hard determinism can permit conscious minds to have free will.
Last edited by attofishpi on Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I already did my matey
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

If you read my post at the top of this third page, I discuss the concept of free will as it relates to control. Control is the source of moral responsibility.
Post Reply