Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
I think our conscious mind is the result of the arrangement of our brain and the chemical and electrical and other physical processes happening in our brain, most likely.
- attofishpi
- Posts: 10011
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Sure, but does compatibilism permit the concept of "free will" within a "determined" universe?Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:57 am I think our conscious mind is the result of the arrangement of our brain and the chemical and electrical and other physical processes happening in our brain, most likely.
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Yes, that's the idea.
- attofishpi
- Posts: 10011
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Well, that's dandy, since that where I was sitting in my compatilbilist head.
So, the question remains, how do you permit a conscious brain (mind) making choices 'freely' within a determined universe?
How do you comprehend the will of a conscious mind, the brain matter where the universe is determined. In such a scenario one cannot be 100% determined universe and 100% random.
You may have read myself and Sculptor discussing this in another thread RE Boony's Room, so you might have more to offer than where my Brian brain is at.
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Making choices freely means being in control. Being in control relies on determinism, control is lessened by randomness.
You can only have free will because of determinism.
You can only have free will because of determinism.
- attofishpi
- Posts: 10011
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Well. Ok then.
So what would you expect to happen regarding my questions pertaining to the two Boonys?
Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.
There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.
What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?
After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.
Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?
So what would you expect to happen regarding my questions pertaining to the two Boonys?
Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.
There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.
What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?
After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.
Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Well, if pure determinism is true, which it probably isn't, they'll do exactly the same thing.
If there's quantum randomness, which there probably is, they'll do something different (probably, eventually).
But they don't have more free will in the second case than they do in the first case.
If there's quantum randomness, which there probably is, they'll do something different (probably, eventually).
But they don't have more free will in the second case than they do in the first case.
- attofishpi
- Posts: 10011
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
I love that.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:35 am Well, if pure determinism is true, which it probably isn't, they'll do exactly the same thing.
If there's quantum randomness, which there probably is, they'll do something different (probably, eventually).
But they don't have more free will in the second case than they do in the first case.
It's Australia/Invasion Day, so gonna have another beer and contemplate that *: )
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Btw, there's also a form of meta determinism which includes randomness, and which a not insignificant number of physicists actually think is probable, or at least likely enough to consider.
- attofishpi
- Posts: 10011
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
I also discount point 1. that in effect Boony & Boony would be 'mirrored' until they drop dead from starvation or attempt to kill themselves *at precisely the same time, probably with their pencils to their jugular veins.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:35 am 1 .Well, if pure determinism is true, which it probably isn't, they'll do exactly the same thing.
2. If there's quantum randomness, which there probably is, they'll do something different (probably, eventually).
But they don't have more free will in the second case than they do in the first case.
Ok. So our goal here is an attempt at least to prove to the hard-determinists that we have a degree of free-will within a determined universe.
Our consciousness is not computable - (therefore not programmable) according to Sir Roger Penrose.
For example:- If I was to punch down hard with a hammer onto someones hand, everything about the action within each mind's consciousness is not computable. Although, personally I think qualia sensation is the non-computable part. Likely within the brain, there is much going on that IS computable, however certainly our senses, how we feel which is a key driver of our WILL, I would agree with Penrose is not computable, cannot be broken down to logic of mathematics, computer algorithms.
So, our consciousness has a will that is based on something which is non-deterministic. For something to be plausibly determined would require to be at least computable, conscious qualia sensation is not.
How so far we go?
Well, that's where I'm 'headed' - within the material brain, we have fluctuations, brain waves are known, and quantum indeterminacy is at play at the heart of consciousness (*although there are phycists that disagree - just synapses - atom level required!!)Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:35 amBtw, there's also a form of meta determinism which includes randomness, and which a not insignificant number of physicists actually think is probable, or at least likely enough to consider.
So with this quantum indeterminacy within our conscious mind, obviously there is a degree of randomness ...for me, from this our conscious WILL, reduces the parameters of the 'noise' until it wittles down, coupled with our qualia feelings, as we will that pattern of randomness down...to a decision.
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
I don't think I have any reason to agree with any bit of that. Consciousness is not computable - I don't know that to be the case. Because it's not computable it's non deterministic - I don't know that to be the case.attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:09 am
Our consciousness is not computable - (therefore not programmable) according to Sir Roger Penrose.
For example:- If I was to punch down hard with a hammer onto someones hand, everything about the action within each mind's consciousness is not computable. Although, personally I think qualia sensation is the non-computable part. Likely within the brain, there is much going on that IS computable, however certainly our senses, how we feel which is a key driver of our WILL, I would agree with Penrose is not computable, cannot be broken down to logic of mathematics, computer algorithms.
So, our consciousness has a will that is based on something which is non-deterministic. For something to be plausibly determined would require to be at least computable, conscious qualia sensation is not.
I think there's some very liberal leaps in thought being taken there, I wouldn't be remotely confident agreeing to any of those things.
-
- Posts: 2598
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
Consciousness is still, and has always been, the "hard problem", there's no denying that. But I don't think it's any less hard once it's declared "non computable", I don't think that solves any of the hard problem compared to people who think consciousness is emergent from the processes in our brains, or any other similar view of consciousness.
It's the hard problem. I don't have the answer to the hard problem, because it's hard. Nobody right now seems to have the answer, because it's really really hard.
It's the hard problem. I don't have the answer to the hard problem, because it's hard. Nobody right now seems to have the answer, because it's really really hard.
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
They keep mirroring each other and want to break free..attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:11 pm Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.
There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.
What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?
After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.
Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?
They have an idea.
Throw a dice and who ever gets the best score has to lie still for a five minutes whilst the other jumps on the spot for 5 minutes. They argue that this will place them on different deterministic trajectories.
THey both throw a 4. They laugh.
They throw again: 6 and 6
They say let's try again....
They both throw a 1.
No matter how many times they throw they always throw the same number because their muscles and the amount of effort they throw into each throw is identical, because they are identical.
It does not matter if they have free will, or think they have free will, or are perfectly determined by cause and effect.
Because their will is based on what they want to do, and that has to be something to do with who and what you are at any given moment.
Re: Boony's Room - a contemplation of Free Will & Determinism
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:11 pm Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.
There are no causal effects differing in each of the Boony's slightly differing positions in spacetime. Nothing in this thought experiment regarding each version of David Boon once instantiated within the room is different in any way.
What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
No. Unless, of course, they were BOTH programmed to speak the EXACT SAME words at the EXACT SAME time.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 pm Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?
If they BOTH did say the EXACT SAME 'thing', at the EXACT SAME 'time', then they could NOT so-call 'argue'.
But considering that they BOTH could NOT and thus would NOT say the EXACT SAME 'things', this is moot anyway.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 pm After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.
Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
WHY would they do that, or WHY would you PRESUME they would?
We will have to WAIT, to SEE.