The meaning of life

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Age
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Age »

Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
Age wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:22 am So, then do you have ANY suggestions of HOW to help "others" to CHANGE, for the better, IF 'faults' and/or 'flaws' are NEVER talked about in the way that I am, SUPPOSEDLY, talking about 'them'?

HOW would you talk about the Wrongs that "others" and/or "yourselves" do WITHOUT talking about 'them' in a way that is PERCEIVED as being 'criticisms'?
I don't think it makes any more sense to talk about human flaws than it does to talk about any other animal having flaws. Humans evolved to survive and reproduce in a particular environment, just like all other living creatures did. The problem is that we have gone on to shape our environment, physically, socially and culturally, so that we are now living under conditions evolution didn't design us for. This, I think, is the reason why human behaviour is sometimes perceived as being flawed.
Hang on. Are you here 'trying to' suggest that the 'conditions' that 'you', human beings, are 'now' living under, in the days when this was being written, was somehow NOT the result of 'you', human beings?

HOW, EXACTLY, could the 'conditions' that 'you' 'now' find "yourselves" 'living under' NOT be what evolution designed 'you' for?

What is the 'thing' that CHANGED the 'conditions', which 'you' are/were, supposedly, NOT designed for?

To me, OBVIOUSLY, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape 'the' environment' (and NOT 'our' environment. Unless, of course, you want to CLAIM ownership or guardianship OVER 'the' environment. Which, if 'you' do, then 'you' NEED to START CHANGING, and STARTING NOW). Anyway, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape environment' the way that it is 'now', then that would be a result of the way 'evolution' CREATED 'you' to do so. Unless you have some OTHER reason WHY 'things' have panned out the way that they have here.

If 'you', human beings, have CREATED the environment the way that it is, then, to me, that is a DIRECT result of 'evolution', itself. (Oh, and by the way, the ACTUAL REASON of WHY 'things' have panned out the way they have, and are panning out the way they are, WILL become VERY CLEAR and OBVIOUS, as we move along and progress here.

So, you are Right in that the 'flaws' and 'faults' within the human being species is Wrong in ANY way in itself, but, to me, if 'they' are NOT talked about and discussed, then they do NOT come-to-light, and thus can NOT be 'addressed'. As it is ONLY when we admit that we have a 'problem', that we can THEN address it and FIX it.

By the way I KNOW of NO fault NOR flaw in ANY OTHER animal, besides the human animal. Are you AWARE of ANY?

If yes, then WILL you ENLIGHTEN me, or us, to those faults OR flaws?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm That's not to say we should just accept that everything is screwed up and we simply have to put up with it. The way the human race is conducting itself at present is certainly creating a situation that is detrimental to us all, so we clearly should be thinking of how we might go about addressing the problem.
1. WHEN you KNOW what the word 'problem' refers to, EXACTLY, then ONLY THEN can 'problems' START to be Truly addressed.

2. To me, it appears as though you are 'trying to' BLAME some 'thing' ELSE, or at least 'trying to' MINIMIZE adult human being MISBEHAVING for the way 'things' or 'the environment' are 'now', when this is being written. The ONLY 'thing' so-called 'screwed up', from my perspective, are the 'thoughts' and 'thinking' in adult human beings.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm I don't think the basic proposition that human beings are a flawed species is a correct or useful starting point from which to proceed in finding solutions to our predicament.
I hope I have NEVER EVER implied that the human being is a flawed species AT ALL. In fact the VERY OPPOSITE is True, well to me anyway. I have just mentioned SOME of the faults and flaws WITHIN the human species. you are NOT under the PRESUMPTION that the human species, in its current, in the days when this is being written, form, is FLAWLESS and/or FAULTLESS are 'you', "harbal"?

Trying to EXPLAIN that EXACTLY HOW absolutely EVERY 'thing' is NOW, including the way human beings have and are MISBEHAVING up to and in the days when this is being written, IS absolutely PERFECT, and that HOW 'things' are 'moving along', 'progressing', or 'evolving' IS in absolute PERFECTION, while still trying to LOOK AT and EXPLAIN the Wrong that adult human beings ARE DOING, is one of the harder 'things' I am in the process of LEARNING how to communicate BETTER, more effectively.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
Would it HELP if I specifically spelled out from the beginning that 'this' is NOT a 'criticism' but is just an OBSERVATION, or is there some other way I could communicate BETTER, which you could help me with here?
People who feel they are being criticised tend to respond by being defensive,
I AGREE TOTALLY.

I have also observed that SOME times when people feel they are being so-called 'criticized' that they ACTUALLY LOOK AT what they are/have been doing, and will seek out ways to CHANGE. After all is it ridiculing or criticizing the way children are, when they misbehave, NOT part of the way adults were taught and learned in how to TEACH children how to behave better?

NOT that I am saying that this is either right NOR wrong. I am, AGAIN, just asking a CLARIFYING QUESTION, from a Truly OPEN viewpoint and perspective.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm so it depends on whether you want to avoid that or not.
YES I would LOVE to avoid the 'criticizing' of "others".

Can you EXPLAIN to me, and us, HOW we can be 'critical' of the Wrong behaviors that 'WE' do, WITHOUT conveying the perception of 'criticism', which can turn most people to being 'defensive' instead of LISTENING and WANTING to CHANGE, for the BETTER?
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm One thing I can say is that your customary way of addressing people as, "you, adult human beings," might come across as a little less alienating if you were to modify it to, "we, adult human beings," but you could only do that if you didn't regard yourself as being apart from the rest of us adult human beings.
I have VERY SPECIFIC reasons for writing in this most, apparently, UNCONVENTIONAL and OBTRUSIVE WAY, to say the least, which will ALL COME-TO-LIGHT, eventually.

I also write this way to SHOW and REVEAL, to future generations, HOW through a way of behaving DIFFERENTLY, from the outset, this WAY could have SAVED months, years, and maybe even decades in REVEALING thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

But, AGAIN, 'I" am in NO rush here. I just want to do 'this' Right and WELL, literally Once, and for ALL.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
And do you find that being 'critical' and/or being 'so critical' ALSO. Or, is it ONLY when I say some 'thing' about the way 'you', adult human beings, mistreat children, each other, and/or the environment then 'that' is being 'critical'?



When "david attenborough" reaches moral or ethical conclusions about the way 'you', human beings, mis/behave is "david attenborough" ALSO being 'critical', or is it ONLY 'being critical' when I reach moral and ethical conclusions about 'you', adult human beings?
I think I only questioned your use of the word "flawed" in relation to human beings, and that was because I don't think it's a helpful description when it comes to looking at the problems you want to draw attention to.
Okay GREAT.

Now that 'this' has become FAR CLEARER to me, I understand you BETTER here.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm Human nature is neither good nor bad, it is just human nature.
Without LOOKING BACK I do NOT recall EVER even suggesting that 'human nature' is 'flawed', NOR that even ANY human being is 'flawed', but ONLY that some of the 'behaviors' of adult human beings are 'flawed', or Wrong.

Surely there is NOT a human being who would 'try' and claim that adults ABUSING children, or the environment, for example, is NOT 'flawed' or NOT Wrong. Or, am I MISTAKEN here? Surely ABUSING 'things' is a Wrong and 'flawed' behavior, in and of itself, of the adult human being, right?

And, remember, to me, there is NO 'wrong' NOR 'bad' human being. There are only people who do 'wrong' OR 'bad' 'things', and that it is 'this' behavior that is 'wrong' or 'bad' ONLY.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm If humanity is faced with a problem, then a solution that does not conflict with human nature is more likely to be more successful than a solution that depends on our -adult human beings- acting contrary to our human nature, isn't it?
BEFORE you even start going into discussions and/or questions like this here I suggest you INFORM 'us' of what is 'our human nature' EXACTLY.

What 'human nature' IS, EXACTLY, is just ANOTHER 'thing' one would have to KNOW, FIRST, before ANY True discussion about 'human nature' could take place. And, AGAIN, what, EXACTLY, is 'human nature' is a VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY 'thing' to come to learn and/or understand, and KNOW.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
Okay, so is what you are doing here just presenting a 'subjective view' as an 'objective state of affairs' also?
I don't know, because I'm starting to get confused about what the original issue was. If it was what I said about your using the term, "flawed", then I suppose I was just expressing my personal opinion.
Okay great. Then, essentially, you are doing EXACTLY what you were ACCUSING me of doing, all while conveying a 'criticism' of what I was doing. Which was what you were being 'critical' about, in the original issue right?

Also, and unless, of course, you have a direct line to the 'objective state of affairs' WITHOUT ANY personal NOR 'subjective view'. Which would be Truly AMAZING if 'you' did.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
Either way, HOW can we IMPROVE this way of communicating, that is; IF it is Truly Wrong?
But do you agree that it was wrong?
If there is one 'thing', where feelings of 'frustration' rise up within this body, it is when questions like this are posed and asked to me.

Now, what does the 'it' word here refer to, EXACTLY?

I can NOT answer you Honestly IF I agree that 'it' was, or is, wrong WHEN I am NOT SURE what 'it' IS, EXACTLY.

If 'it' is using the 'flawed' word in relation to 'you', adult human beings, then 'it' is ONLY in this thread when I have been slowly coming to realize that the 'flawed' word has been the, MAYBE, only real issue that you have had here.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm Because if you do, you must have a reason for thinking that, and the answer you are looking for will lie in that reason. If that sounds like nonsence it is because I'm losing sight of what we are trying to improve.
We, hopefully, are trying to IMPROVE the way 'I' can communicate with 'you', human beings, BETTER.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm
Or, is there ACTUALLY an 'internal KNOWING' of what IS ACTUALLY Right in Life, and which it might ONLY be through 'value judging' and some sort of 'criticism', through 'rational thinking' HOW, WHERE, and WHY CHANGING, for the BETTER ACTUALLY OCCURS?
I think there is an internal knowing that tells us what is right in life, but this internal "knowledge" can vary greatly between one individual and another,
Well this appears to be, on first glance, and EXTREMELY CONTRADICTORY presumption.

Which, by the way, ALL becomes EXPLAINED and SOLVED FULLY WHEN HOW the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORKS becomes KNOWN.

See, it is HOW the brain works WHY these types of INCONSISTENCIES and CONTRADICTIONS start to exist.
Harbal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm so arriving at a change that every one thinks better is going to be very difficult, if not impossible.
There is a GREAT DEAL of Truth in what you wrote here.

And, only on FURTHER REFLECTION and DISCUSSION, HOW it ALL can be, and WILL BE, RESOLVED WILL COME-TO-LIGHT.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Trajk Logik »

Age wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:14 pm If you're not willing to elaborate and provide examples, then how am I suppose to accept it and agree with you?
But I have NEVER wanted you to accept 'it', (whatever 'it' is EXACTLY), NOR have I EVER wanted you to agree with me.

you are absolutely FREE to accept and agree with absolutely ANY thing of your CHOOSING. I CERTAINLY do NOT want to influence you in ANY way whatsoever.

I just answer and CLARIFY questions posed to me, from those who are INTERESTED. And, the MORE one is INTERESTED, then the MORE CLARIFYING questions they will pose, and ask to me, and then the MORE information I WILL provide. Thus, for those who are Truly INTERESTED, then they will come to KNOW thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth, AS WELL.
I know one actual and irrefutable truth, and it's that you don't know the actual irrefutable truth. Just disagreeing without providing a reason isn't an argument against anything that I've said, and the reason shouldn't have to be pried out of you. It should be provided automatically as part of making a legitimate philosophical argument.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The meaning of life

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Age wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:54 pm
WHEN did you EVER ask me 'to tell the forum what this one FUNDAMENTAL meaning and purpose is',EXACTLY? (Oh and by the way that is NOT 'asking' that IS 'telling'.)
I did ask you if you would 'tell' .. that doesn't mean I was telling you to tell, as I have no control over whether you tell or not.
Age wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:54 pmNow, what ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE was you posed, to me, a question, and asked, 'What makes you think that there could be just one fundamental meaning/purpose?
It wasn't me who said that, Age...it was Trajk Logik who said that.
Age wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:54 pmTo which I replied, Because I have found One that EVERY one could agree with, and accept.

Which, BOTH, answers and CLARIFIES the ACTUAL question you asked me. Honestly, I will add here, now.

If you would like me to provide a DIFFERENT answer or do some 'thing' DIFFERENTLY, then I suggest you ASK a question here now.
Will you put what you have found into words at this forum? that EVERY one could agree with, and accept?
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Harbal
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Harbal »

Age wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:59 am
Hang on. Are you here 'trying to' suggest that the 'conditions' that 'you', human beings, are 'now' living under, in the days when this was being written, was somehow NOT the result of 'you', human beings?

HOW, EXACTLY, could the 'conditions' that 'you' 'now' find "yourselves" 'living under' NOT be what evolution designed 'you' for?

What is the 'thing' that CHANGED the 'conditions', which 'you' are/were, supposedly, NOT designed for?

To me, OBVIOUSLY, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape 'the' environment' (and NOT 'our' environment. Unless, of course, you want to CLAIM ownership or guardianship OVER 'the' environment. Which, if 'you' do, then 'you' NEED to START CHANGING, and STARTING NOW). Anyway, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape environment' the way that it is 'now', then that would be a result of the way 'evolution' CREATED 'you' to do so. Unless you have some OTHER reason WHY 'things' have panned out the way that they have here.

If 'you', human beings, have CREATED the environment the way that it is, then, to me, that is a DIRECT result of 'evolution', itself. (Oh, and by the way, the ACTUAL REASON of WHY 'things' have panned out the way they have, and are panning out the way they are, WILL become VERY CLEAR and OBVIOUS, as we move along and progress here.

So, you are Right in that the 'flaws' and 'faults' within the human being species is Wrong in ANY way in itself, but, to me, if 'they' are NOT talked about and discussed, then they do NOT come-to-light, and thus can NOT be 'addressed'. As it is ONLY when we admit that we have a 'problem', that we can THEN address it and FIX it.

By the way I KNOW of NO fault NOR flaw in ANY OTHER animal, besides the human animal. Are you AWARE of ANY?

If yes, then WILL you ENLIGHTEN me, or us, to those faults OR flaws?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Evolution is not a process with an end result in mind. Evolution doesn't have a mind. Natural selection gradually moulds a species to best thrive in its environment. Most environments are stable, and most species do not cause their environment to change. Human beings do change their environment, and while natural selection is what brought about our ability and tendency to do that, it didn't do it as part of a plan. Evolution made us adaptable, but it didn't make us able to function optimally in absolutely any conditions, and it didn't programme us with a fail safe that prevents us from creating a physical and social environment that forces us to behave in ways that clash and conflict with aspects of our nature that became set when we lived in a very different environment with a very different life style.

Maybe it is a fundamental principle of nature that every system eventually breaks down, or burns itself out. Perhaps humanity is currently in the later stages of natural decay.
promethean75
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by promethean75 »

"Perhaps humanity is currently in the later stages of natural decay."

why do i keep hearing this at philosophy forums? you're talking about a highly intelligent biped who's just invented space travel, AI, clean energy, gene therapy, all that shit, becoming extinct some time soon?

no way man. we're fixin to enter the star trek spandex jacket stage of our evolution
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Harbal
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Harbal »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:13 pm "Perhaps humanity is currently in the later stages of natural decay."

why do i keep hearing this at philosophy forums? you're talking about a highly intelligent biped who's just invented space travel, AI, clean energy, gene therapy, all that shit, becoming extinct some time soon?
I didn't say we were heading towards extinction; I don't know what we are heading towards. Mabe the human race will be around indefinitely, but in an ever increasing state of misery.
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by promethean75 »

quantitatively i think global suffering resulting from poverty will decrease as eventually developers will move into third world countries and start building shit and creating jobs and all that.

i mean yeah in the deep schopenhauerean sense that it's all (the world) just the phenomenal representation of a blind, striving will that has no purpose, we're all ontologically miserable... but let's just try and focus on getting everyone a good job first and go from there.
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Harbal
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Harbal »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:37 pm quantitatively i think global suffering resulting from poverty will decrease as eventually developers will move into third world countries and start building shit and creating jobs and all that.

i mean yeah in the deep schopenhauerean sense that it's all (the world) just the phenomenal representation of a blind, striving will that has no purpose, we're all ontologically miserable... but let's just try and focus on getting everyone a good job first and go from there.
For many, it is their job that causes them the most misery. :|
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Iwannaplato »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:13 pm why do i keep hearing this at philosophy forums? you're talking about a highly intelligent biped who's just invented space travel, AI, clean energy, gene therapy, all that shit, becoming extinct some time soon?
and nano-tech and genetically modified products and....
Yeah, precisely. We tend to play irresponsibly with our toys and now our toys make things like Chernobyl look extremely local, even though it nearly destroyed an enormous swathe of Euroasia. See the ever wonderful Emily Watson and Stellan Skarsgård (together again!) and many other fine actors in Chernobyl the limited tv-series to find out that it was actually much worse than most knew, many orders of magnitude worse, and if not for very smart and very brave people........
Not if the transhumanists get their way.

You made a list of accomplishments that show humans are clever. It would have been more convincing if you could have managed to make a list showing the major players, with the power to mess everything up, were wiser.
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Re: The meaning of life

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Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:11 pmWhat is "meaning" and "purpose" to then say whether life has it or not?
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Toppsy Kretts »

Harbal wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:00 pm Yes, our existence is pointless, but the absurdity of life makes it well worth living.














Harbalpotkin
i have to refuse that its all for nothing, that everything doesnt have an esssence of its own.
but if that thought is still dominant maya i suggest a theroy of my own that if there is ANY meaning to life then wouldnt it be to the same reason for a video game? or a book maybe? that maybe the only REAL meaning to life would be something as small as to,,, leave something behind?? To have something here after your gone? to have soemthing remembered by? whether that be a kid or patton for a problem solving invention. something at least. or maybe knowledge? soemthing to be recieved from the past life you just lived?
Of course i am entertaining the idea that life has some meaning and a higher power has set these meanings across
the rock we call earth.
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Harbal
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Harbal »

Toppsy Kretts wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:31 pm
Of course i am entertaining the idea that life has some meaning and a higher power has set these meanings across
the rock we call earth.
You might be right, but I don't entertain such ideas myself.
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Toppsy Kretts
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Toppsy Kretts »

Harbal wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:02 pm
Toppsy Kretts wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:31 pm
Of course i am entertaining the idea that life has some meaning and a higher power has set these meanings across
the rock we call earth.
You might be right, but I don't entertain such ideas myself.
Which ideas do you entertain then?
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Harbal
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Harbal »

Toppsy Kretts wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:30 pm Which ideas do you entertain then?
I entertain the idea that there is no higher power, or at least not one with conscious intention, thereforre neither we nor anything else in the universe came into being with any predetermined purpose.
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Toppsy Kretts
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Re: The meaning of life

Post by Toppsy Kretts »

Harbal wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:40 pm
Toppsy Kretts wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:30 pm Which ideas do you entertain then?
I entertain the idea that there is no higher power, or at least not one with conscious intention, thereforre neither we nor anything else in the universe came into being with any predetermined purpose.
so you belive the meaning of life is...nothing. /?
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