Hang on. Are you here 'trying to' suggest that the 'conditions' that 'you', human beings, are 'now' living under, in the days when this was being written, was somehow NOT the result of 'you', human beings?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pmI don't think it makes any more sense to talk about human flaws than it does to talk about any other animal having flaws. Humans evolved to survive and reproduce in a particular environment, just like all other living creatures did. The problem is that we have gone on to shape our environment, physically, socially and culturally, so that we are now living under conditions evolution didn't design us for. This, I think, is the reason why human behaviour is sometimes perceived as being flawed.Age wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:22 am So, then do you have ANY suggestions of HOW to help "others" to CHANGE, for the better, IF 'faults' and/or 'flaws' are NEVER talked about in the way that I am, SUPPOSEDLY, talking about 'them'?
HOW would you talk about the Wrongs that "others" and/or "yourselves" do WITHOUT talking about 'them' in a way that is PERCEIVED as being 'criticisms'?
HOW, EXACTLY, could the 'conditions' that 'you' 'now' find "yourselves" 'living under' NOT be what evolution designed 'you' for?
What is the 'thing' that CHANGED the 'conditions', which 'you' are/were, supposedly, NOT designed for?
To me, OBVIOUSLY, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape 'the' environment' (and NOT 'our' environment. Unless, of course, you want to CLAIM ownership or guardianship OVER 'the' environment. Which, if 'you' do, then 'you' NEED to START CHANGING, and STARTING NOW). Anyway, if 'you' have gone on to 'shape environment' the way that it is 'now', then that would be a result of the way 'evolution' CREATED 'you' to do so. Unless you have some OTHER reason WHY 'things' have panned out the way that they have here.
If 'you', human beings, have CREATED the environment the way that it is, then, to me, that is a DIRECT result of 'evolution', itself. (Oh, and by the way, the ACTUAL REASON of WHY 'things' have panned out the way they have, and are panning out the way they are, WILL become VERY CLEAR and OBVIOUS, as we move along and progress here.
So, you are Right in that the 'flaws' and 'faults' within the human being species is Wrong in ANY way in itself, but, to me, if 'they' are NOT talked about and discussed, then they do NOT come-to-light, and thus can NOT be 'addressed'. As it is ONLY when we admit that we have a 'problem', that we can THEN address it and FIX it.
By the way I KNOW of NO fault NOR flaw in ANY OTHER animal, besides the human animal. Are you AWARE of ANY?
If yes, then WILL you ENLIGHTEN me, or us, to those faults OR flaws?
If no, then WHY NOT?
1. WHEN you KNOW what the word 'problem' refers to, EXACTLY, then ONLY THEN can 'problems' START to be Truly addressed.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm That's not to say we should just accept that everything is screwed up and we simply have to put up with it. The way the human race is conducting itself at present is certainly creating a situation that is detrimental to us all, so we clearly should be thinking of how we might go about addressing the problem.
2. To me, it appears as though you are 'trying to' BLAME some 'thing' ELSE, or at least 'trying to' MINIMIZE adult human being MISBEHAVING for the way 'things' or 'the environment' are 'now', when this is being written. The ONLY 'thing' so-called 'screwed up', from my perspective, are the 'thoughts' and 'thinking' in adult human beings.
I hope I have NEVER EVER implied that the human being is a flawed species AT ALL. In fact the VERY OPPOSITE is True, well to me anyway. I have just mentioned SOME of the faults and flaws WITHIN the human species. you are NOT under the PRESUMPTION that the human species, in its current, in the days when this is being written, form, is FLAWLESS and/or FAULTLESS are 'you', "harbal"?
Trying to EXPLAIN that EXACTLY HOW absolutely EVERY 'thing' is NOW, including the way human beings have and are MISBEHAVING up to and in the days when this is being written, IS absolutely PERFECT, and that HOW 'things' are 'moving along', 'progressing', or 'evolving' IS in absolute PERFECTION, while still trying to LOOK AT and EXPLAIN the Wrong that adult human beings ARE DOING, is one of the harder 'things' I am in the process of LEARNING how to communicate BETTER, more effectively.
I AGREE TOTALLY.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pmPeople who feel they are being criticised tend to respond by being defensive,Would it HELP if I specifically spelled out from the beginning that 'this' is NOT a 'criticism' but is just an OBSERVATION, or is there some other way I could communicate BETTER, which you could help me with here?
I have also observed that SOME times when people feel they are being so-called 'criticized' that they ACTUALLY LOOK AT what they are/have been doing, and will seek out ways to CHANGE. After all is it ridiculing or criticizing the way children are, when they misbehave, NOT part of the way adults were taught and learned in how to TEACH children how to behave better?
NOT that I am saying that this is either right NOR wrong. I am, AGAIN, just asking a CLARIFYING QUESTION, from a Truly OPEN viewpoint and perspective.
YES I would LOVE to avoid the 'criticizing' of "others".
Can you EXPLAIN to me, and us, HOW we can be 'critical' of the Wrong behaviors that 'WE' do, WITHOUT conveying the perception of 'criticism', which can turn most people to being 'defensive' instead of LISTENING and WANTING to CHANGE, for the BETTER?
I have VERY SPECIFIC reasons for writing in this most, apparently, UNCONVENTIONAL and OBTRUSIVE WAY, to say the least, which will ALL COME-TO-LIGHT, eventually.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pm One thing I can say is that your customary way of addressing people as, "you, adult human beings," might come across as a little less alienating if you were to modify it to, "we, adult human beings," but you could only do that if you didn't regard yourself as being apart from the rest of us adult human beings.
I also write this way to SHOW and REVEAL, to future generations, HOW through a way of behaving DIFFERENTLY, from the outset, this WAY could have SAVED months, years, and maybe even decades in REVEALING thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
But, AGAIN, 'I" am in NO rush here. I just want to do 'this' Right and WELL, literally Once, and for ALL.
Okay GREAT.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pmI think I only questioned your use of the word "flawed" in relation to human beings, and that was because I don't think it's a helpful description when it comes to looking at the problems you want to draw attention to.And do you find that being 'critical' and/or being 'so critical' ALSO. Or, is it ONLY when I say some 'thing' about the way 'you', adult human beings, mistreat children, each other, and/or the environment then 'that' is being 'critical'?
When "david attenborough" reaches moral or ethical conclusions about the way 'you', human beings, mis/behave is "david attenborough" ALSO being 'critical', or is it ONLY 'being critical' when I reach moral and ethical conclusions about 'you', adult human beings?
Now that 'this' has become FAR CLEARER to me, I understand you BETTER here.
Without LOOKING BACK I do NOT recall EVER even suggesting that 'human nature' is 'flawed', NOR that even ANY human being is 'flawed', but ONLY that some of the 'behaviors' of adult human beings are 'flawed', or Wrong.
Surely there is NOT a human being who would 'try' and claim that adults ABUSING children, or the environment, for example, is NOT 'flawed' or NOT Wrong. Or, am I MISTAKEN here? Surely ABUSING 'things' is a Wrong and 'flawed' behavior, in and of itself, of the adult human being, right?
And, remember, to me, there is NO 'wrong' NOR 'bad' human being. There are only people who do 'wrong' OR 'bad' 'things', and that it is 'this' behavior that is 'wrong' or 'bad' ONLY.
BEFORE you even start going into discussions and/or questions like this here I suggest you INFORM 'us' of what is 'our human nature' EXACTLY.
What 'human nature' IS, EXACTLY, is just ANOTHER 'thing' one would have to KNOW, FIRST, before ANY True discussion about 'human nature' could take place. And, AGAIN, what, EXACTLY, is 'human nature' is a VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY 'thing' to come to learn and/or understand, and KNOW.
Okay great. Then, essentially, you are doing EXACTLY what you were ACCUSING me of doing, all while conveying a 'criticism' of what I was doing. Which was what you were being 'critical' about, in the original issue right?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pmI don't know, because I'm starting to get confused about what the original issue was. If it was what I said about your using the term, "flawed", then I suppose I was just expressing my personal opinion.Okay, so is what you are doing here just presenting a 'subjective view' as an 'objective state of affairs' also?
Also, and unless, of course, you have a direct line to the 'objective state of affairs' WITHOUT ANY personal NOR 'subjective view'. Which would be Truly AMAZING if 'you' did.
If there is one 'thing', where feelings of 'frustration' rise up within this body, it is when questions like this are posed and asked to me.
Now, what does the 'it' word here refer to, EXACTLY?
I can NOT answer you Honestly IF I agree that 'it' was, or is, wrong WHEN I am NOT SURE what 'it' IS, EXACTLY.
If 'it' is using the 'flawed' word in relation to 'you', adult human beings, then 'it' is ONLY in this thread when I have been slowly coming to realize that the 'flawed' word has been the, MAYBE, only real issue that you have had here.
We, hopefully, are trying to IMPROVE the way 'I' can communicate with 'you', human beings, BETTER.
Well this appears to be, on first glance, and EXTREMELY CONTRADICTORY presumption.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 pmI think there is an internal knowing that tells us what is right in life, but this internal "knowledge" can vary greatly between one individual and another,Or, is there ACTUALLY an 'internal KNOWING' of what IS ACTUALLY Right in Life, and which it might ONLY be through 'value judging' and some sort of 'criticism', through 'rational thinking' HOW, WHERE, and WHY CHANGING, for the BETTER ACTUALLY OCCURS?
Which, by the way, ALL becomes EXPLAINED and SOLVED FULLY WHEN HOW the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORKS becomes KNOWN.
See, it is HOW the brain works WHY these types of INCONSISTENCIES and CONTRADICTIONS start to exist.
There is a GREAT DEAL of Truth in what you wrote here.
And, only on FURTHER REFLECTION and DISCUSSION, HOW it ALL can be, and WILL BE, RESOLVED WILL COME-TO-LIGHT.