I will ask, AGAIN, How, EXACTLY, could one 'enjoy' 'misery'?dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:04 amThank you very much for your replies.
I will give an example to show that this is practically possible. A child enjoys the sweet, but dislikes the hot dish since it tasted the hot dish once and felt the pinch of it. This means that the child did not enjoy the hot dish even once and hence, does not like to taste the hot dish again.
But, you take the case of an adult. He enjoyed the hot dish and hence, he tries to taste the hot dish again and again. The difference between the child and adult establishes the fact that the enjoyment and non-enjoyment of the hot dish does not lie in the dish, but lies in the attitude of the enjoyer.
Similarly, misery also can be enjoyed as in the case of enjoyment of hot dish by the adult. All the souls in the creation, who do not like the enjoyment of misery, resemble those children. The human incarnation of God enjoys the misery and infact, God comes down to the earth in order to enjoy the misery, which is totally absent in His upper abode.
In His upper abode, only happiness and praise of God persists by which God gets bored like in the continuous enjoyment of sweets. God called His gate-watchmen called Jaya and Vijaya and requested them to take birth as villains to give Him troubles on the earth so that He can enjoy the hot dish for a change[2]. I will give an example to show that this is practically possible. A child enjoys the sweet, but dislikes the hot dish since it tasted the hot dish once and felt the pinch of it. This means that the child did not enjoy the hot dish even once and hence, does not like to taste the hot dish again.
But, you take the case of an adult. He enjoyed the hot dish and hence, he tries to taste the hot dish again and again. The difference between the child and adult establishes the fact that the enjoyment and non-enjoyment of the hot dish does not lie in the dish, but lies in the attitude of the enjoyer.
Similarly, misery also can be enjoyed as in the case of enjoyment of hot dish by the adult. All the souls in the creation, who do not like the enjoyment of misery, resemble those children. The human incarnation of God enjoys the misery and infact, God comes down to the earth in order to enjoy the misery, which is totally absent in His upper abode.
In His upper abode, only happiness and praise of God persists by which God gets bored like in the continuous enjoyment of sweets. God called His gate-watchmen called Jaya and Vijaya and requested them to take birth as villains to give Him troubles on the earth so that He can enjoy the hot dish for a change[2].
The hot dish not only gives a variety of enjoyment but also serves as a break between two sweet dishes. Infact, the sweet dish after hot dish gives reinforced enjoyment. Thus, the hot dish serves a double purpose and is very important.
You may argue that the tragedy in a cinema can be enjoyed since we know that the entire cinema is unreal. But, the tragedy in life cannot be enjoyed like that since we know that the entire life is a reality.
God may enjoy the tragedy in the life of a human incarnation, since, for God, everything is unreal expect Himself. But, for a human being, the situation is quite different.
Since the soul is a part of unreal creation, the unreal creation cannot be unreal for the unreal soul. Unreal for unreal is always real. This argument is ruled out because even the soul can feel the creation unreal.
The entire creation is a modification of the cosmic energy. Matter is a modification of energy. All the static items are different forms of the energy only.
All the actions are different forms of kinetic energy. Infact, the space, which we consider as vacuum is also subtle invisible cosmic energy only.
This point can be proven through science. The special theory of relativity says that space bends along the boundaries of an object. If space is nothing, nothing cannot bend. Only if it is something, it can bend.
Therefore, there is nothing like nothing. The vacuum acts as a source of generation of galaxies. Therefore, the entire creation is nothing but different modified forms of cosmic energy. Even the soul is a form of nervous energy, which is a specific type of kinetic energy only, since the soul or awareness is only transformation of information from the senses to brain.
Thus, the soul can realize that the entire creation is basically a continuous quantum of cosmic energy only. In that case, all the forms like objects and all the activities are unreal with respect to the basic cosmic energy. When this is realized, the entire creation becomes unreal since there is only one real cosmic energy.
On realizing the unreal creation, the soul can enjoy the tragedy of life also as a tragedy of the unreal cinema. This monism (Advaita) is preached by Shankara to all the human beings. In His preaching to the souls, the ultimate absolute reality is cosmic energy, which can be called as Brahman.
The word Brahman can be applied to the greatest item of any category. The Veda is called as Brahman in the Gita since the Veda is the greatest book among all the books.
Coming to cosmic energy, it is the greatest among all the items of the entire creation. The word Brahman perfectly suits the cosmic energy since it is the greatest among all the categories of the entire creation.
God is also called as Brahman because God is greater then cosmic energy. God is the ultimate absolute reality and with reference to Him, even the cosmic energy is unreal. As far as the forms and activities of the creation are concerned, they are unreal with respect to the immediate cosmic energy and they are also unreal with respect to the final God.
Cosmic energy is the ultimate absolute reality with respect to forms and activities of the creation. But, the same cosmic energy is a unreal relative reality with respect to God, Who is the ultimate absolute reality.
Therefore, both the God and the soul can realize the creation in the level of forms and activities as unreal. This point of unreality of forms and activities is common to both God and soul. The ultimate absolute reality may differ in the case of God and soul and that difference is unnecessary as far as the unreal relative reality of the forms and activities is concerned.
For God, the absolute reality is Himself and for the soul, the absolute reality is cosmic energy. The soul itself is a part of cosmic energy. It can never consider itself as unreal. Therefore, the soul can never transcend the cosmic energy.
Hence, the soul can enjoy the tragedy in the level of forms and activities like God in human incarnation. There is no difference between God and soul as far as the realization of unreality of creation in the level of forms and activities is concerned. The basis for comedy or tragedy in the life is only the level of forms and activities of the creation.
The soul can never transcend space and can never imagine the situation beyond space. Since space is energy, it means that the soul can never transcend space or energy. Therefore, God, existing beyond space becomes unimaginable to any soul.
The producer-cum-director is watching the entire drama from outside. The actor is a part of the drama.
The unreal drama, involving the created story of scenes, can be realized as unreal by the inside actor as well as the outside producer-cum-director. The unreality of drama is common to both and it does not distinguish the actor and producer-cum-director.
The monism preached by Shankara is one and the same from the point of the soul as well as from the point of God. The only difference is that the cosmic energy of which the soul is a part becomes the ultimate absolute reality for the soul, whereas for God the ultimate absolute reality is Himself since the cosmic energy is also an unreal relative reality in the view of God.
Therefore, the human incarnation of God and also the realized soul can enjoy the misery of the world since it is unreal to both.
The Tragedy of Life
Re: The Tragedy of Life
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Re: The Tragedy of Life
The essence of the entire message of Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita, is to develop the highest state in which you can be in the state of continuous enjoyment and happiness through entertainment. If you can enjoy the problems also, such continuous state of happiness is possible. The human being has always the worst tendency to pick-up negative things only in the life and go on brooding over those things. Either you should avoid thinking about those negative things (dhyayato vishayaan …) or you should be able to enjoy those negative things also like the dish of chillies in meals.
Avoiding the thinking of negative things in the life is impossible since they touch and penetrate the mind in the practical life. Therefore, the only alternative way is to enjoy those things also and be happy in every minute of life. Such state is called as Brahmi sthiti (Eshaa brahmi sthitih …), which means that you should continuously enjoy your life containing both positive and negative things like God enjoying His creation containing both good and bad.
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Look "dattaswami" 'I' have ALREADY reached and achieved the state, which 'you' speak of here. I, however, would just like to back up and support 'your' claim here by explaining to the readers here HOW they can 'enjoy' 'misery'.dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:58 amThe essence of the entire message of Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita, is to develop the highest state in which you can be in the state of continuous enjoyment and happiness through entertainment. If you can enjoy the problems also, such continuous state of happiness is possible. The human being has always the worst tendency to pick-up negative things only in the life and go on brooding over those things. Either you should avoid thinking about those negative things (dhyayato vishayaan …) or you should be able to enjoy those negative things also like the dish of chillies in meals.
If 'you' do not, then 'you' are just proving that 'you' have NOT reached NOR achieved this state YET.
WHAT is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which 'you' speak of here?dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:58 am Avoiding the thinking of negative things in the life is impossible since they touch and penetrate the mind in the practical life.
WHO SAYS that 'you' SHOULD 'enjoy' 'misery'?dattaswami wrote: ↑Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:58 am Therefore, the only alternative way is to enjoy those things also and be happy in every minute of life. Such state is called as Brahmi sthiti (Eshaa brahmi sthitih …), which means that you should continuously enjoy your life containing both positive and negative things like God enjoying His creation containing both good and bad.
This sounds like some thing that a perpetrator of ABUSE could or would say.
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Let me try to illustrate the point Dattaswami makes by some examples:
I get cancer (let us not shy from serious misery). Could I somehow watch the progress going on in my body, like a child would, and see how interesting it is ? In case of physical pain there are pain-killers.
Or one has gangreaned soul because of severe disappointments in life and just observes what happens to one day after day. "Nasty mood today yet again. So what? Funny."
This would be a sort of "detachment": watching oneself from a distance, without getting emotional about it.
I get cancer (let us not shy from serious misery). Could I somehow watch the progress going on in my body, like a child would, and see how interesting it is ? In case of physical pain there are pain-killers.
Or one has gangreaned soul because of severe disappointments in life and just observes what happens to one day after day. "Nasty mood today yet again. So what? Funny."
This would be a sort of "detachment": watching oneself from a distance, without getting emotional about it.
Re: The Tragedy of Life
I mean one´s own cancer.
You are good at smiling though, I saw your picture somewhere here. Sunshine on wuthering heights.
You are good at smiling though, I saw your picture somewhere here. Sunshine on wuthering heights.
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Life is short on earth. Living eternally is torturing though unless you can find a meaning for anything.duszek wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:08 pm After listening two times to the excellent podcast about the tragedy of life I would like to develop on the following:
It was mentioned that if all our desires were satisfied our life would become boring.
It was then immediately suggested that you can desire excitement.
These two seem to contradict each other: boredom and excitement.
Some people look for constant excitement on the internet and they can find it: games, thrillers, mysteries, conspirational thearies ...
They don´t get bored, but they probably grow weary after a while.
In the novel "Infinite Jest" people indulging in something wonderful on a video tape forgot to eat and drink and died. The video showed not exactly something exciting in the usual sense of the word, but people stayed glued to the video just the same.
Have you made any intersting discoveries in the area of personal excitement management ?
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Another kind of misery I can think of, especially on a discussion forum like this one, is not getting enough attention.
Is it possible to enjoy it somehow ?
One could compare oneself to victims of stalking and feel happy by comparison but this is probably a cheap trick.
Is it possible to enjoy it somehow ?
One could compare oneself to victims of stalking and feel happy by comparison but this is probably a cheap trick.
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Another example:
clinical depression.
Only those who experienced it personally, for a day or longer, have an idea what it is, while being sad can be enjoyed of course, feeling like a romantic heroine or hero in a melodrama.
Can one enjoy clinical depression somehow ?
If you know that it is going to stop about 24 hours later then you can look forward to the time after it. But while you are in it is it conceivable to enjoy it somehow ?
clinical depression.
Only those who experienced it personally, for a day or longer, have an idea what it is, while being sad can be enjoyed of course, feeling like a romantic heroine or hero in a melodrama.
Can one enjoy clinical depression somehow ?
If you know that it is going to stop about 24 hours later then you can look forward to the time after it. But while you are in it is it conceivable to enjoy it somehow ?
- Toppsy Kretts
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Re: The Tragedy of Life
what if the moral of the story you had mentioned about "Infinite Jest"-is as simple as can be? What what is mentioned to the reader about how those men and women lived there life id living to the degree that everything comes and goes and that to experience life to the fullest it would be ideal to indulge your time with things that make you feel happy? Or things that make you feel satisfied in the world. no matter what the cost is.duszek wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:08 pm After listening two times to the excellent podcast about the tragedy of life I would like to develop on the following:
It was mentioned that if all our desires were satisfied our life would become boring.
It was then immediately suggested that you can desire excitement.
These two seem to contradict each other: boredom and excitement.
Some people look for constant excitement on the internet and they can find it: games, thrillers, mysteries, conspirational theories ...
They don´t get bored, but they probably grow weary after a while.
In the novel "Infinite Jest" people indulging in something wonderful on a video tape forgot to eat and drink and died. The video showed not exactly something exciting in the usual sense of the word, but people stayed glued to the video just the same.
Have you made any interesting discoveries in the area of personal excitement management ?
id rather laugh for 5 minutes and die, than to never laugh in a lifetime
Re: The Tragedy of Life
Especially if the last 5 is not the first 5.Toppsy Kretts wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:38 pm
id rather laugh for 5 minutes and die, than to never laugh in a lifetime
- Toppsy Kretts
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Re: The Tragedy of Life
i think your agreeing with me i had just woken up i apologizeWalker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:40 pmEspecially if the last 5 is not the first 5.Toppsy Kretts wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:38 pm
id rather laugh for 5 minutes and die, than to never laugh in a lifetime
Re: The Tragedy of Life
When our first grand-daughter was born the other grand-father standing beside me, both of us beholding her for the first time, told me that when a newborn smiles, as our grand-daughter was smiling, it's because she is remembering her last life.
The scientists say newborns smile because of gas, but that never caused me to smile, or those in the vicinity if you get my drift.
What do you think?
The scientists say newborns smile because of gas, but that never caused me to smile, or those in the vicinity if you get my drift.
What do you think?
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Re: The Tragedy of Life
Perhaps your grand daughter was smiling because of how gassy she was in her last life.