The Tragedy of Life

For all things philosophical.

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duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Mr Promethean and Mr Walker

Let me give you an example to explain what I mean:

A hardened and embittered incel calls and spills his anger and his views that it is unfair that attractive women don´t fall in love with him although he perfectly deserves it. (I read a novel about someone like it who murders women to "punish them".)

How would you argue with empathy ?
A robot or an AI agent would produce logical arguments and try to broaden his mind (at least), without feeling hopeless, drained and depressed themselves.

For example: "If you were born as a woman would you consider it fair to be forced to overcome disgust and to pretend to love a terrible jerk (mainly because of the character: weird, lacking social skills etc.) ???? "

"Should not everyone be free to love or not to love ?"
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

People who call a helpline don´t have a caring friend.

A robot or AI could be less embarrassing to meet and to communicate with. So the caller would be more relaxed.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Agent Smith »

He reached into his left pocket, then into his right, and he rubbed his back pockets with his palms. It wasn't Abercombie's lucky day, not his lucky day at all. He turned toward Tatiana; Tatiana met his gaze. Both smiled, Abercombie smiled too. That was the last time they would ever meet. Hamzul was lost at sea, Tatiana disappeared in the Alps, and Abercombie was found dead in a Boltan coal mine.
promethean75
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by promethean75 »

"Both smiled, Abercombie smiled too."

Redundant. It is already indicated that Abercrombie smiled. How about: Both smiled, to Abercrombie's relief.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm Mr Promethean and Mr Walker
Salutations may soon be on the woke chopping block.

I figure folks in such dire straits to call a hotline want to be heard more than advised, and they want to be heard by a human and not a machine. Sometimes an intelligent dog will suffice. Advice might seem offensive to a caller who has the attitude: "You don't know me, how could you advise me?"
promethean75
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by promethean75 »

"A robot or an AI agent would produce logical arguments and try to broaden his mind (at least), without feeling hopeless, drained and depressed themselves."

ohhhh i see what you're sayin. you're sayin the AI would in such an instance be less emotional and more analytical, uneffected by any personal prejudice toward incels that would otherwise effect a human conversationalist.

perhaps.

on the other hand, the other side of that coin is that sometimes it is precisely the ethos and pathos of the argument form that persuades the listener to reconsider his position. for example, Joe's engaged in a heavy conversation with an incel. joe very passionately believes that incel reasoning is fallacious and unfair, and that shows in the nuance of his speech and behavior, 'heated' as it were. think sam and jordan goin at it. it wouldn't just be the logos of their argumentation that produces an effect on the other.

maybe it wouldn't dawn on the incel that he wuz a moron unless the guy he wuz arguing with wuz a douchebag to em, ya know?
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Agent Smith »

promethean75 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:01 pm "Both smiled, Abercombie smiled too."

Redundant. It is already indicated that Abercrombie smiled. How about: Both smiled, to Abercrombie's relief.
:)
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Walker wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:14 pm
duszek wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm Mr Promethean and Mr Walker
Salutations may soon be on the woke chopping block.

I figure folks in such dire straits to call a hotline want to be heard more than advised, and they want to be heard by a human and not a machine. Sometimes an intelligent dog will suffice. Advice might seem offensive to a caller who has the attitude: "You don't know me, how could you advise me?"
But what does listening to someone imply ?
I think it implies that we offer some sort of feedback. An honest one preferably. But some people may prefer to be humoured.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:48 pm I think it implies that we offer some sort of feedback. An honest one preferably. But some people may prefer to be humoured.
Absolutely. In addition to intelligent feedback a good listener requires presence when listening. To have presence is to be completely there in that moment, body and mind, to hear what is said and not said, to have patience and to actively consider, right there, what the other person does say.

Repeating back what the person said, in your words and perhaps with your insight to your own words, is a good form of feedback, if required. Sometimes the speaker doesn't want to hear, and a good listener will detect that, and being a good listener will not talk over it.

Often those who prefer to be humoured don't measure up to their own power. It's worse when the power is granted, like an elected official. Like Brandon. It's well known that those who do surround themselves with yes-men (yes-people?), out of insecurity or because the people saying yes are highly trusted, risk disconnecting with what's happening now. That's why real politicians who represent the people rather than Bizarro World, like to beat the bushes.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

Let's keep it in context, though. I'm not a trained hotline counselor. You're asking for my opinion.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:48 pm But what does listening to someone imply ?
Hear the sublime.

Lady J
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3_5nBHZJr0
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:31 pm Mr Promethean and Mr Walker

Let me give you an example to explain what I mean:

A hardened and embittered incel calls and spills his anger and his views that it is unfair that attractive women don´t fall in love with him although he perfectly deserves it. (I read a novel about someone like it who murders women to "punish them".)
Awhile back there in the past I saw an episode on a TV series called The Shield. There is a smart detective named Dutch. He is not the type who attracts women, and he wants to. In the interrogation room scene, a pimp is brought in for questioning concerning one of his women who is beautiful, cultured and intelligent enough to at first, convince the police that she was a career woman (might have been real estate) who had been the victim of a crime. They soon figured out she was a different kind of pro. The detective is smart and wants to understand the psychological hold that the pimp, who is not a very classy guy, has over the woman. The pimp makes fun of the detective because of his ignorance about women. The detective honestly asks about the psychology of women, and the pimp explains to the detective how he can make any woman love him, by making the woman psychologically and emotionally dependent on him. He goes into detail. Machivellian, oh yes. Manipulative, sure. Predatory, you bet. But the key point is, the pimp filled an emotional need in the woman, and she wasn’t the only woman who was emotionally dependent upon him.

By the end of the series, which was quite a few episodes later, the hot women of the princinct were starting to notice the smart detective who had been a social 8-ball. They were having some regrets they had not noticed him earlier. He had more women than he could handle. He had been using some of the pimp psychology.

Rather than staying needy, he became perceptive of needs and how to fulfill them. How to stoke the need. But, he was still a goof.

The scene was brilliant because it got to the root of attraction. What attacts someone is what fulfills a need. From there one can determine the cause of the need. For example, many women need to laugh. The natural-selection explanation is: intelligence is required to make a woman laugh ... one thing leads to another ... and the species evolves.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

This is a nice theory, Walker, but if it were so simple, all incels would book a coaching seminar with a specialist like the pimp in your example and their troubles would be gone by magic. Any frog would become a prince charming.

There are probably flirtation seminars and things like that on the internet already.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Walker wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:02 am
duszek wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:48 pm I think it implies that we offer some sort of feedback. An honest one preferably. But some people may prefer to be humoured.
Absolutely. In addition to intelligent feedback a good listener requires presence when listening. To have presence is to be completely there in that moment, body and mind, to hear what is said and not said, to have patience and to actively consider, right there, what the other person does say.
Yes, but it takes a lot of patience to listen to bores and to suffer fools gladly.
It takes a saint.

Some talkers are manipulative too, so it becomes an ugly battle of nerves. One needs to decide whether to oppose the manipulation by naming it.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Sometimes it is really hard to "like" the person one is listening to.
And this is necessary to create a positive atmosphere of exchange.

It is not possible to force oneself to like someone.
And to fake liking someone is dishonest.

That´s why it is easier to listen to people we don´t know because we usually assume optimistically that they are nice.
We hope for some likeable traits to appear in due course.
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