The Tragedy of Life

For all things philosophical.

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Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:13 pm Yes, but it takes a lot of patience to listen to bores and to suffer fools gladly.
It takes a saint.

Some talkers are manipulative too, so it becomes an ugly battle of nerves. One needs to decide whether to oppose the manipulation by naming it.
You make a good case for cultivating spiritual equanimity that suspends belief and favouritism. This clears the way for objective apprehension of sensory input, including thoughts. From that follows action.

For example, the objective sensory input of your thoughts within this thread has led to the action (activation) of a memory. While traveling alone and stuck on the tarmac long ago, the young woman in the window seat beside me, after a short time to grow accustomed to my presence, told me about the dynamics of how the arranged marriage of her parents, who did not know one another before their marriage, had evolved over her lifetime. She was interesting and informative. In the course of the telling I gathered that she disapproved of arranged marriages.

Speaking of this obviously fulfilled a need in her, and whether actions that followed from that need were calculated, instinctive, or even understood by her, she did the right thing. She spoke her true thoughts about obvious concerns about her past and thus also about her future, which she may have viewed as her troubles, to a total stranger wearing a wedding ring, who would very soon vanish completely from her presence for all time, but for now was actively listening with comprehension of her concerns about the concept of arranged marriage as it related to her own life and history. I was a sounding board, as it were, for her to clarify her own thoughts to herself.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:11 pm This is a nice theory, Walker, but if it were so simple, all incels would book a coaching seminar with a specialist like the pimp in your example and their troubles would be gone by magic. Any frog would become a prince charming.

There are probably flirtation seminars and things like that on the internet already.
Well, you trivialize it and make it shallow. There's more to it than that. And you managed to turn your "what would you say," request into ... coaching.

People often have real issues and learn to connect in real ways that are intertwined with purpose. Prince Charming is an outsider who rides into a woman's mundane world from someplace she can only imagine.

Perhaps that's the problem with dating when a romantic relationship is held apart from all else in life, meaning held apart from the humdrum reality of life. The apart relationship then becomes something special, something magical. It becomes, "I have a boyfriend in another state, or country."

When marriage arrives the magic is expected to merge with the humdrum and when it doesn't, you may have some troubles.

Since the pill women have been able to plan more carefully and give a man a trial spin before marriage, but I've heard those folks get divorced too. If romance meeting humdrum doesn't work out then it's often off in search of more romance. When that happens, the self-concept refuses to sacrifice itself to The Vow.

Men probably like telling their story to a new woman. Look at how great I've been. Or, nobody knows the troubles I've seen. When one spouse is significantly older, one of them needs energy and the other needs money/security.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Agent Smith »

"Excuse me young girl, is this 221B Baker street?"

(Giggling)"Yes it is" (giggle)

"I've come from the Faroese to consult Mr. Sherlock Holmes. Where may I find him?"

(Giggling)"Oh, Mr. Holmes will be here shortly sir. He's gone out to meet Inspector Lestrade, said it couldn't wait." (giggling)

"Why thank you miss ... miss ....?"

"Delia"

" Of course, miss Delia. Thank you"

(Giggle, giggle) "You're welcome."

A few moments later ...

"Mr. Holmes? Mr. Sherlock Holmes?"

"Yes?" How may I be of service, Mr. Poltman? I received your email."
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Walker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:55 am
duszek wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:11 pm This is a nice theory, Walker, but if it were so simple, all incels would book a coaching seminar with a specialist like the pimp in your example and their troubles would be gone by magic. Any frog would become a prince charming.

There are probably flirtation seminars and things like that on the internet already.
Well, you trivialize it and make it shallow. There's more to it than that. And you managed to turn your "what would you say," request into ... coaching.
Thank you for the criticism.

What I was trying to point out is this:

A skillful pimp or another dishonest individual can fill a gap in a woman´s life and thus gain her heart. (Said you before.)
Can´t an incel train himself to fill a gap in an attractive woman´s life and thus achieve what we wants ?

My choice of the term "prince charming" was unfortunate or even clumsy, therefore I drop it and try to refer more exactly to what you said.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Walker wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:07 pm
duszek wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:13 pm Yes, but it takes a lot of patience to listen to bores and to suffer fools gladly.
It takes a saint.

Some talkers are manipulative too, so it becomes an ugly battle of nerves. One needs to decide whether to oppose the manipulation by naming it.
You make a good case for cultivating spiritual equanimity that suspends belief and favouritism. This clears the way for objective apprehension of sensory input, including thoughts. From that follows action.

For example, the objective sensory input of your thoughts within this thread has led to the action (activation) of a memory. While traveling alone and stuck on the tarmac long ago, the young woman in the window seat beside me, after a short time to grow accustomed to my presence, told me about the dynamics of how the arranged marriage of her parents, who did not know one another before their marriage, had evolved over her lifetime. She was interesting and informative. In the course of the telling I gathered that she disapproved of arranged marriages.

Speaking of this obviously fulfilled a need in her, and whether actions that followed from that need were calculated, instinctive, or even understood by her, she did the right thing. She spoke her true thoughts about obvious concerns about her past and thus also about her future, which she may have viewed as her troubles, to a total stranger wearing a wedding ring, who would very soon vanish completely from her presence for all time, but for now was actively listening with comprehension of her concerns about the concept of arranged marriage as it related to her own life and history. I was a sounding board, as it were, for her to clarify her own thoughts to herself.
This makes sense to me. When we listen to a stranger we have more patience because the person is new to us. So we can act as a sounding board.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:47 am
What I was trying to point out is this:

A skillful pimp or another dishonest individual can fill a gap in a woman´s life and thus gain her heart. (Said you before.)
Can´t an incel train himself to fill a gap in an attractive woman´s life and thus achieve what we wants ?
I finally broke down and looked up the definition of this word, "incel," that everyone except me seems to know.

It seems to me that if a physical/emotional relationship with a woman is the be-all and end-all of someone's purpose in life, then pramatism and not idealism is the order of the day.

Are you sure that "dishonest," properly describes the pimp? He's actually extremely honest. He has no illusions about himself.

The question is, how would this incel go about training himself, when inceldom is apparently a state of mind?

The Nutty Professor did it chemically and became Buddy Love, but eventually it wore off.

The Transformation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylAI0nso9OU
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

How would an incel train himself ?

Dale Carnegie wrote a book about how to win friends and influence people.
Someone like him could write a book about how to find out what is the gap in a woman´s life and how to fill it.

If an honest pimp can figure out how to humour and win a lady´s favour why should an incel not be able to do it ?
He is someone who is celibate without wanting it.
He should face the challenge.
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:09 pm How would an incel train himself ?

Dale Carnegie wrote a book about how to win friends and influence people.
Someone like him could write a book about how to find out what is the gap in a woman´s life and how to fill it.

If an honest pimp can figure out how to humour and win a lady´s favour why should an incel not be able to do it ?
He is someone who is celibate without wanting it.
He should face the challenge.
The Song of the Honest Pimp (with lyrics)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wyL1NtMVPo
Walker
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Walker »

duszek wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:09 pm He should face the challenge.
That would not be a tragedy of life.

A man may have limited or impared rationality caused by Hollywood-fed romantic notions of what Love, is. It’s easy to think this is a limitation for a man, particularly easy for those who irrefutably know what they know.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:32 am Are you sure that "dishonest," properly describes the pimp? He's actually extremely honest. He has no illusions about himself.
Entitlement. He thinks he is entitled to the suffering of the prostitute in service of his wants and needs. He actually feels vicitimized by the prostitute wanting to stop serving him. To the point where he will get violent. He's not just a pragmatist, using violence to keep her in line. He actually feels like she owes him her being his slave. He is so far from looking at himself he can manage to have this hallucinated image of the context.
The question is, how would this incel go about training himself, when inceldom is apparently a state of mind?
Now that's the interesting question. How does one with limited skills, move out of a worldview where one's suffering seems to justify that worldview as the only possible one. The incel sees others as having the power and responsibility and himself as a mere victim. This attitude does not give him the tools to move out of this stance. Of course some manage to. How can one do this?
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Iwannaplato »

duszek wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:09 pm How would an incel train himself ?

Dale Carnegie wrote a book about how to win friends and influence people.
Someone like him could write a book about how to find out what is the gap in a woman´s life and how to fill it.

If an honest pimp can figure out how to humour and win a lady´s favour why should an incel not be able to do it ?
He is someone who is celibate without wanting it.
He should face the challenge.
They are mirror images. The incel seeing the woman as having all the power. The pimp seeming to take all the power. Neither one can really manage to relate to someone as an equal. To want both sides to be free. The incel feels utterly powerless. The pimp needs to get the woman in a position where she feels utterly powerless.

Neither of them knows how to dance.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Even chimps trade if not high enough in the hierarchy.

Long ago I saw a film in which a minor chimp approached a trio of chimp ladies. He offered a pine-apple for sexual intercourse and got it. One female gave him what he wanted while the other two ate the fruit.
If you are a silver back chimp you get what you want without any offerings.

If it makes sense to chimps it should make sense to humans too.

Trading presupposes two partners who are free to make a transaction. If there is not deal they look for someone else.
duszek
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by duszek »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:01 am
duszek wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:09 pm How would an incel train himself ?

Dale Carnegie wrote a book about how to win friends and influence people.
Someone like him could write a book about how to find out what is the gap in a woman´s life and how to fill it.

If an honest pimp can figure out how to humour and win a lady´s favour why should an incel not be able to do it ?
He is someone who is celibate without wanting it.
He should face the challenge.
They are mirror images. The incel seeing the woman as having all the power. The pimp seeming to take all the power. Neither one can really manage to relate to someone as an equal. To want both sides to be free. The incel feels utterly powerless. The pimp needs to get the woman in a position where she feels utterly powerless.

Neither of them knows how to dance.
The pimp is still offering something which the lady can refuse but perhaps it is worth it for her. Even if it is immaterial: soothing words, emotional words, companionship.
You can trade good humour for a service.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Iwannaplato »

duszek wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:21 pm The pimp is still offering something which the lady can refuse
Perhaps refuse and get a beating or get raped again or he's offering more of the drugs he got her hooked on or more faux affection. Stuff that women raped by family members might have sensed were in the offing when they met these guys, but because on some unconscious level if was all familiar, so they repeat themselves.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Tragedy of Life

Post by Agent Smith »

"We must call 911," Jerry was panicking. "Wait! We havta make sure that that's the right thing ta do!" Ben interjected. "Whaddaya mean we havta make sure?! Cole's been shot and he's bleeding! We need help, pronto!" Jerry was furious. "Yeah, that I get, but ... but ..." Ben went. "Shaddup Ben!" Jerry screamed. "Hello, 911 emergency, how may I help you?" the voice at the other end was calm and sounded like the goddess of help, Eir! :mrgreen:
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