appearances vs reality...

[Peter Kropotkin]

Aristotle in his book, ''The Metaphysics" wrote this..
very first line in fact:

"By nature, all men long to know"

It is part of human nature to desire the acquisition of knowledge,
it is hardwired into human beings.... we desire to know....
but we run into a problem, the very real problem of
appearance vs reality.... we have the transitory, the temporary,
the fact that everything we know or believe in is transitory,
temporary... and we seek to find the permanent, the enduring,
the everlasting....

but I ask, what if, what if appearance is reality? This seeking of
the permanent is a false and pointless exercise that leads us nowhere....
I call this seeking of the permanent, of seeking that which is forever,
as the "cult of immorality"...

and how did this 'cult of immorality?" begin?

with the knowledge, understanding of death....
it is said that the human being is an "animal that guards it's dead"...
and religion is a meditation on death...

But what is missing? A meditation on life...

and we begin that meditation on life, with some basic principles that
become obvious to any that look...

1. we begin with the not so original observation that human beings
suffer... we are born, and that is our original suffering, our original "sin"
and we spend our lives, however long or short, in a state of suffering..
we grow old, that is suffering... we suffer from illness to disease to
old age and finally death.. while every step of the way has suffering
within it....

2.and what exactly is suffering?

as I see it, suffering is a lack of choice.. without choices, we suffer...
I was born, no choice, I was "educated" no choice, I suffer from
the pangs of existence, from unrequited love to unfulfilled
expectations...we don't just suffer from our physical nature,
but from our inner nature.. we suffer from learning that our
existence is temporary, impermanent... some even say our
existence is illusionary.... and we suffer from that knowledge.

3. as I grow older, I am living proof, being human is a state of entropy..
the going from order to a state of disorder... old age is
this disorder brought to life... Every single day, I have less energy
and my body hurts more.. that is entropy at work... my body is going
from order to disorder.. if you fail to understand this point, you will
fail to understand life and what it is about....

4. the real question of existence is not about left vs right or liberal
vs conservative, but of order vs disorder.....
how do we achieve order becomes the question of existence?
When I was young, I wasn't afraid of disorder, that is being young..
and so, anarchism was possible for me because I had no fear of
disorder... today, I am old and I prefer order to disorder and so I am no
longer an anarchist....but let us look at conservatives... they desire,
demand order.. that is what being a conservative all about.... order....
and all their choices, are about going/getting to order....

and a liberal isn't afraid of disorder... and that is the entire argument
between liberals and conservatives.... order vs disorder...

and the question in life comes down to this, how do we achieve balance
between order and disorder... for much of life, much of what is necessary
in life is disorder... love for example is disorder... playing games is turning disorder
into order.... ART is turning feelings and emotions into order... in fact,
one could easily hold that all life is, is about this problem between
creating order and existence going from order to disorder...
everything in life can be said to be the problem of order vs disorder....

and so let us look at our ism's, our belief systems as means to
turn disorder into order... what is a political system? Turning
disorder into order.. and what is an economic system? Turning
disorder into order.....in fact, all drives to create systems, be it
political, economic, social and philosophical, are drives to create
order.. from disorder.....

A belief such as Catholicism is one such drive as is nationalism
as is capitalism as is communism as is Buddhism....
belief systems are simple attempts to create order in our
chaotic universe....

and this understanding that the universe is chaotic, disordered is
one that suggest that there is no god... for what is god, if not the
creation of order in our existence?

"In the beginning, was the word, and the word was with god, and
the word was god. All things were made by him; and without him
was not anything that was made"

To say anything was created by, is to say, order was brought into
the universe... and that is a good definition of "evolution",
going from disorder to order... and because "evolution" is true,
it is and must include disorder/chaos, for there is no order without
disorder... to have one is to have the other....

and so we fight over ism's and ideologies that all claim to bring about order...
and we claim that our ism, our ideology will bring about more order than
the other guy ism's...whether that is true or not is irrelevant....
the quest for order or disorder isn't about what is true or relevant,
it is a fact of life....

so, the ''Declaration of Independence" isn't about a given political system,
it is a document about what kind of order we Americans want...

and the drive for all attempts to a system, be it political, social, economic,
scientific, philosophical, are the drive for order and what sort of order we want....

and this leads us to wonder about the Kantian questions of existence,
''What am I do to?" 'What am I to hope for?" ''What can I know?" we can now
see them as attempts to create order out of disorder...

and we can see that all belief systems are simply attempts to bring order
into a disordered universe....and which system will bring about the most
order...

I shall continue in the next post..

Kropotkin

[Iwannaplato]

Aristotle in his book, ''The Metaphysics" wrote this..
very first line in fact:

"By nature, all men long to know"

It is part of human nature to desire the acquisition of knowledge,
it is hardwired into human beings.... we desire to know....
but we run into a problem, the very real problem of
appearance vs reality.... we have the transitory, the temporary,
the fact that everything we know or believe in is transitory,
temporary... and we seek to find the permanent, the enduring,
the everlasting....
"cult of immorality"...

Not immorTality?

and a liberal isn't afraid of disorder... and that is the entire argument
between liberals and conservatives.... order vs disorder...

I would see it as having different kinds of order. The left wants more control of the market. The right often wants a certain kind of control of behavior - social norms. Though these days the right is getting a lot competition from left ideas about how we must and must not speak. But I see both conservatives and liberals as creators of laws and laws are a form of trying to create order.

and the question in life comes down to this, how do we achieve balance
between order and disorder... for much of life, much of what is necessary
in life is disorder... love for example is disorder... playing games is turning disorder
into order.... ART is turning feelings and emotions into order... in fact,
one could easily hold that all life is, is about this problem between
creating order and existence going from order to disorder...
everything in life can be said to be the problem of order vs disorder....

So, then all of us are trying to maintain order and also creating disorder, in different ways. So, can you reconsider the idea that conservatives are afraid of disorder and liberals are not. Because in this paragraph you see even children creating order out of disorder. It is a natural human trait. As is the opposite.

A belief such as Catholicism is one such drive as is nationalism
as is capitalism as is communism as is Buddhism....
belief systems are simple attempts to create order in our
chaotic universe....

Agreed, they are in part that.

and this understanding that the universe is chaotic, disordered is
one that suggest that there is no god... for what is god, if not the
creation of order in our existence?

That let's out theisms where it there are even specific deities that create disorder. But even in the Abrahamic religions there are explanations for what we experience as disorder and these are seen as necessary.

"In the beginning, was the word, and the word was with god, and
the word was god. All things were made by him; and without him
was not anything that was made"

To say anything was created by, is to say, order was brought into
the universe...

The universe was brought into existence. I don't think we can call the lack of a universe disorder.

and that is a good definition of "evolution",
going from disorder to order... and because "evolution" is true,
it is and must include disorder/chaos, for there is no order without
disorder... to have one is to have the other....

Then it would be good to have conservatives, if you are correct about them, and liberals.

and so we fight over ism's and ideologies that all claim to bring about order...

They do, but then they often talk about bringing about and allowing freedom, of different kinds. And freedom allows for disorder.

so, the ''Declaration of Independence" isn't about a given political system,
it is a document about what kind of order we Americans want...

Though in it's time it is actually staking out disorder a resistence to certain kinds of order. The word independence aims at disorder (and certainly from the British perspective).

and we can see that all belief systems are simply attempts to bring order
into a disordered universe....and which system will bring about the most
order...

I don't think so. I think there is a partial truth to this, but also most belief systems are trying to free us from certain kinds of order, orders imposed on us by power or nature.

Even if they also impose order on us at the same time, intentionally or by accident.

[Peter Kropotkin]

as you are correct, I misspelled it, it should
be Immortality" not immorality...my bad..
but possible just a Freudian slip...

but isn't the question of freedom, just a question of how much
order vs disorder we allow?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and we can now see both political and economic systems as
attempts to go from disorder to order...
a dictatorship is an extreme attempt to create order,
a monarchy is a slightly milder attempt and democracy
is a milder attempt to create order... we can see from our
modern democracies that they are a small step from
disorder and chaos... but as I have pointed out, we human
beings have a need for disorder... LOVE and ART are both
acts of disorder....and so think about dictatorships...
name me one dictatorship that has lasted very long?
I can't think of one and why? Because by their very nature,
dictatorships try to prevent and stifle disorder...
which is frankly an impossible and futile act.. for we human beings
require on some fundamental level, chaos and disorder of some sort...
that is the basic dichotomy we human beings have.. the conflict
between order and disorder/chaos... so let forget the old ways
of understanding, which is left vs right, good vs evil, but to the new
way which is this question of., how do we reach order and how much
disorder/chaos can we have/allow?

and let us continue this thought about order and systems, with
some thought as to why capitalism seems to work... and that is
because capitalism seems to try to bring order into a system while
allowing disorder/chaos to occur....
so we no longer see economic systems as being about how much
"happiness" or prosperity it brings... but we see systems, political,
social, economic, legal, philosophical as being about order and disorder...
and how can we have order and still allow disorder for the system to work?

So, ask yourself, how much order or disorder can I personally deal with?
and that answer will inform you of what political, economic, social,
legal and philosophical systems you so desire or want....

and it will tell you how important certain aspects of your life you must
engage with, for if you need love or the ''Aesthetics" then you need more
disorder in your life, if you want certainty or inevitability or trust in your life,
you want order in your life... as I want some of both, because I believe in
love, hope, ART, my beliefs are not set in the stone of order/certainty...
I can live with some uncertainty, ambiguity, ambivalence... I am quite ok,
with that aspect of existence.... are you ok with ambiguity or uncertainty?

if not, if you need certainty and order, you are on some level,
a conservative...

Kropotkin

[Iwannaplato]

as you are correct, I misspelled it, it should
be Immortality" not immorality...my bad..
but possible just a Freudian slip...

but isn't the question of freedom, just a question of how much
order vs disorder we allow?

Kropotkin

Yes. And I think it is a good way to look at political positions: using these terms.
But one person's freedom is another person's sin/not-pc.
And one person's order can to another person seem like allowing an unfair order or oppression.

I think to further any dialogue, including using these ideas, it would be good to see what order and disorder each political group is fighting for. Which disorders/freedoms they prioritize, which they do not and how. Etc. Perhaps in the end one group will seem or actually be more in favor of order or more afraid of disorder. But in an exploratory analysis, I think it is better to see what orders and disorders they value.

Liberals may well think they are less afraid of disorder, but they may not notice the kinds of disorder they are afraid of and what policies they assume must be in place to prevent them.
Likewise conservatives.

[Peter Kropotkin]

as to the question of nature, is nature, as we know and understand it,
order or disorder/chaos?

Look to the birds and bees, lions and bears, forest and field,
in nature, they are not order but nature including evolution is
disorder/chaos..... read about evolution, as I have, and see that
evolution is going from one sort of disorder/chaos to another sort of
disorder/chaos....

there is nothing in evolution that will help us understand
what is order vs disorder... for all that evolution is,
it is disorder going to more disorder.... think of the lions in Africa
or the snakes in America... what order do those animal follow?
the order of instinct.. of what was hardwired into them....
we human beings, we are the first animals to seek and create
order in our existence.... and therein lies a problem with evolution,
how does evolution explain the human need for order?

so, for me, evolution has two problems, (if not more)
the creation of consciousness and the human need for order...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and what of other concepts like sin and salvation?

for me, the word sin is an attempt to understand what certainty is, and
what is order as what is salvation in terms of order vs disorder/chaos...

the basic and primary search in our lives is for certainty, which is
the search for order... and we must now think/believe that a little
uncertainty, ambiguity and disorder are not only possible, but
necessary in our lives.... which is to say, that we not only have
ambiguity, but we need "sin" in our lives to have some disorder/chaos in
our lives..."sin" is not only needed, but necessary for us to lead
valuable lives.... to reject "sin" is to reject disorder/chaos and
we must have some disorder/chaos in our lives....

for life, is not about certainty, or order.. we can't find any type of
certainty in our lives and we can only create order from the disorder/chaos
that is human existence.... every single concept we can imagine, is
a concept about order vs disorder.... how much order vs how much
disorder/chaos, are we to have in our lives?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

as science today is about uncertainty and chaos, so too
must come history, philosophy, economics, political,
social and legal, just to name a few, must come
a new paradigm, that of find the balance between
order/certainty and disorder/chaos/uncertainty....

the question is no longer, do we have order or disorder,
but how much order do we need and how much disorder do
we need? Right or wrong is no longer relevant, as is good vs evil,
no, the question from now on is this, how much order is
enough for us and how much disorder/chaos is enough for us.....\\

to seek right or wrong is not important... to accept disorder and chaos
in our lives, that is what is important.... to gain certainty is no longer
the primary philosophical activity.. to gain an understanding of
what it means to be human given our disorder and chaotic universe,
that is the question..... how much disorder and chaos in my life can
I stand? to be young is to accept more disorder and to be old is to
stand with order and certainty.... what are you?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

theology is about order and science is about disorder/chaos....

and what side do you stand on?

that is the modern question....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and what does our new understanding of what it means to be
human, given that our reality isn't fixed or set in order/certainty,
but is given in disorder/chaos/randomness?

We seek first of all, what does ethics now mean given that
there is no such thing as order/certainty?

Ethics: a set of moral principles, especially relating to or affirming a specified
group, field, or form of conduct:

Ethics as an adjective: relating to moral principles or the branch of
knowledge dealing with these...

Given the nature of reality being disordered, chaotic, random,
how do we "know" what being moral is? what is ethical given we have
no set or certain place to start? Ethics is just appearances..

for we can't even tell one another if an action, say abortion or murder,
is "ethical" or "Moral"... for what standard will we use? a religious standard, or
economic, political, scientific, philosophical or none of the above?

Ethics is really nothing more than a "ad hoc" understanding of
our actions... for what is moral in one instance isn't moral in another instance...
moral relativism is the only possible path into the future and that path is
chaotic, uncertain, full of ambiguity.....

Kropotkin

[Lacewing]

Order and disorder are different things to different people for different reasons.

You seem to be trying to make order out of it. But your order is sure to seem a bit disordered to some people.

I do not agree that conservatives are about order, while liberals are about disorder. They are focused on different things from each other, as well as sharing some of the same desires.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Order and disorder are different things to different people for different reasons.

You seem to be trying to make order out of it. But your order is sure to seem a bit disordered to some people.

I do not agree that conservatives are about order, while liberals are about disorder. They are focused on different things from each other, as well as sharing some of the same desires.

K: the point I was trying to make (and clearly failed, which is
my fault) is that there is no such thing as absolutes as order vs disorder and
who wants what... some conservatives are ok with disorder and chaos
and some liberals hate disorder and chaos... it is all about
the random nature of human beings... just as the universe is about
randomness and chance and probability, human beings are engaged
in chance, randomness and probabilities... there is no set beliefs in
conservatives and no set beliefs in liberals.....

what we believe is as much a product of our childhood, our education,
our current social-economic standing, our religious and social beliefs
and when and where we were born... because I was born in Minneapolis
and not in San Francisco, I hold certain beliefs and because I was born
in 1959, instead of 1999, I hold certain beliefs...

we are as much of a product of our childhood as we are of our education,
and our studies.. I have studied philosophy for over 40 years... and yet,
quite often, my childhood beliefs will interfere with what I have studied..
for in a real sense, we cannot escape our childhood... at best, we can
overcome it and become something different....

Kropotkin

[Lacewing]

the point I was trying to make...

Ah! Yes, that makes sense. There are no absolutes.

Even if someone appears to create disorder, they may not be aiming for that, but rather freedom from restriction. I think someone else pointed this out in this thread. I'm a very orderly person, myself, in many ways -- yet I fly outside of conventions when they seem too limited. I seek that balance that you speak of. I think people lose clarity and power when they gravitate to extremes. The extremes become their gods, for which they'll do just about anything to serve and maintain.

What draws people to extremes? Why are they not content with balance? Is it because extremes are easier to identify oneself with because there are fewer options and decisions? Does balance require too much flexibility and cooperative work with others? Maybe extremes are the quickest/easiest path to imagining "being right" (falsely)... and that feeds the ego?

[Iwannaplato]

as to the question of nature, is nature, as we know and understand it,
order or disorder/chaos?

It's both. Ecosystems can sustain balance for incredible periods of time. For individual creatures and plants there can be great order and then disorder. Systems are being disrupted and returning to balanced states all the time. Especially if we contrast humans and their effects with other parts of ecosystems.

Look to the birds and bees, lions and bears, forest and field,
in nature, they are not order but nature including evolution is
disorder/chaos.....

That's not what I see. I see all sorts of order in the lives of birds, lions, bees, etc.

there is nothing in evolution that will help us understand
what is order vs disorder... for all that evolution is,
it is disorder going to more disorder.... think of the lions in Africa
or the snakes in America... what order do those animal follow?

in their bodies all sorts of patterns working on homeostasis. They have behavior patterns, eating pattners, group patterns (the lions), mating patterns and more.

the order of instinct.. of what was hardwired into them....
we human beings, we are the first animals to seek and create
order in our existence.... and therein lies a problem with evolution,
how does evolution explain the human need for order?

I think all animals seek order. We have the ability to create new kinds of order and disorder.