Modern times and Telos...

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Peter Kropotkin
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Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

As I have noted before, Telos is one's goal or purpose...

And look at your life today, what is your life telos?

If you work, as I have done for 45 years, what is the goal or endpoint of
working? If you work to gain wealth or material goods or titles or power,
you have wasted your life... Those goals have no point, they are as transient
as the air you breath every day.....I have had wealth and I have had my
15 minutes of fame and I have had titles and even a modest amount of
power and nothing is more fleeting then wealth or titles or fame or power...
and those ephemeral things last for a short time and then disappear..

but ask yourself, what can last longer than a day?
If we remove those things that are transient, of short duration,
what is left? I suggest something radical in this materialistic age...

seek that which is more permanent than just material goods...
and Kropotkin, what might that be?

Why dear reader, seek the improvement of the soul, or intellect or seek
the rarest element in the universe? Wisdom... much more than money
or power or fame or material goods, wisdom can hold us all through our
lives... wisdom can't ever be lost or taken or misplaced... it will last us
long after wealth or material goods or fame or titles are gone..

Even a lifelong pursuit of the "good" is far better than a temporary
reaching of the baubles of existence.. that which is short lived...

Ok, Kropotkin, how do I achieve the goal of wisdom, or improvement of
my soul? That first comes with the recognition of the worthlessness of
our need for material goods.... they are just baubles that mean nothing..

and then just work out what is truly important in our lives..
in other words, we have to work out what is actually valuable
in our existence.... and I say, it isn't the material good we so fancy
these days...but what is it?

Kropotkin
Iwannaplato
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Iwannaplato »

wisdom is a pretty good ongoing goal.
I suppose I would focus on the lived aspect of it, the doing wisdom as opposed to the knowing wisdom.
not that those are separate, but often one thinks of words of wisdom
and more important for me is the wisdom of that aids acting in the world and interally.
How to end problematic self-judgment.
How do deal with toxic people. Not tricks, but how to actually not be entangled by their bs.
How to reflect over what one has done and improve.
How to sit with cognitive dissonance.
How to fight well with those we love and those we don't. Again, not learning some set of rule or tricks and much of it coming from introspection and living.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

For many religions, if not all of them, the question is this,

"How does one get saved?"

The telos or goal/purpose of existence is to be saved...
but that leaves us with the question of, saved from what or for what?

To be saved is to be redeemed, at least in the Christian religion..

Redemption: 1. the action of being saved or being saved from sin, error, or
evil:

2. the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for
payment or clearing a debt:

archaic: the action of buying one's freedom..

Personally, I find the second definition to be far more interesting...
to clear a debt.. is our telos really about clearing a debt?
a debt to a being, god, that we can't even prove exists?
That strikes me as being ridiculous....
Finding redemption, being saved from a god that doesn't even
exist.

So, what other possibilities of finding our telos might exist?

We might try these other possibilities.. for example, we might be
saved, redeemed through love, we might be saved within a search of
philosophical notions such as Aesthetics, or the search for knowledge/
epistemology, through our engagement with morals/ ethics...

or to say this another way, we might find meaning and purpose,
telos in our seeking beauty, sunsets, paintings, literature, ART...
in the act of being creative, of seeking the beautiful in life..

or we might find our telos in seeking knowledge....
for wisdom is the rightful application of knowledge.. knowledge used
correctly and wisely.....that is wisdom... and that is a worthy telos for us...

or perhaps our telos can be found in our application of ethics/morals....
and what does it mean, being moral/ethical, in the real life application of
ethics/morals?

ethics/morals: the equal application of justice between two or more people...

in other words, are we being moral or ethical, if we treat people differently if
they have a different skin color or a different race or practice a differently
religion? No, morals/ethics require that we treat everyone we meet the
same....

So, in truth, there is no difference between justice, equality and morals/ethics...
they all describe the exact same thing, just from different angles...or
different perspectives...

to treat people equally is the heart of being ethical/moral....
and the heart of an engagement with being just... justice is the
practice of being equal to anyone before any government...
or members of the government...

So in other words, for there to be justice in our government,
every aspect of the government must treat all people equally..
from the policeman to the Supreme court and all aspects in between,
must treat the citizens and each other equally...

So, to take a current event into perspective...
the current effort to hold IQ45 legally responsible for his actions,
both while he was president and afterwards, is the appropriate thing to do,
both legally, morally, ethically and equally, as accountable, is the right thing to do...

our actions are not just legally defined, but they are accountable
within a moral, ethical, judicially and within equality, for justice
is the act of treating everyone equally... and that is the exact same
definition of being ethical/moral... of treating everyone equally....

to treat IQ45 differently than any American citizen is not just
legally wrong, but it is wrong morally, ethically, judicially,
and wrong in terms of being just.. justice to be justice, is the
equal application of the laws to everyone...regardless of their
race, color, religion, sexual orientation, or title and wealth...

So, in seeking out our telos, how much attention must we pay
to such matters as justice, morals, ethics, equality, laws?

I would suggest that part of the reason that we are unclear on both
our personal and collective telos, is our being unclear on
such basic concepts of justice, equality, morals and ethics...

If we clear up our misconceptions about what is just or what is moral,
or what is ethical or what equality actually means,
I think we might have a better grasp of our telos...

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

so let further explore morals/ethics/equality....

In meeting a specific child, you might treat them differently,,
a child that is your niece, and meeting your boss's child is going to
go differently because the context is different..
two children, the exact same age, but you need to treat them differently
individually as the context changes...

So, we can say that within the class of children, you are going to
treat them roughly the same, but individually we might treat them
differently due to the context...

Let us say, we are pulled over by a policeman...given the context,
you are going to treat him/her differently because they are the police,
instead of a social situation, a party for example...but as a class, we
will treat people within that class, of policemen or judges or
women, roughly the same.. again depending on the context...

So, I might treat the president of the PTA differently than I will treat
the president of the U.S, as they are both presidents of something,
both belonging to a class... and so depending on context, I might react to
them far differently individually....

So, within our morals/ ethics/ justice we will treat those in a specific class,
say a president or a policeman, roughly the same as dictated by their class...

but individually, I might treat them vastly different depending on the context...

now within a class, of children or policemen or presidents, we will treat them
roughly the same, and individually, we might treat them differently again, context matters...

so the concept of justice, equality, ethics and morals also depend on
our context, individually or as a class...... you cannot treat someone
equally if, IF they belong to a different class... but you can treat them
differently or not, depending on the context...

Ethics, morals, justice changes depending on context and the class
or individual nature of who you interact with...

One might argue that I haven't said anything, but I have.....

Ethics, moral and justice all require equality to be ethical, moral or
just..... but that equality changes depends on how we interact with
the situation.. either individually or within a class or by context...

but it takes wisdom to apply one's knowledge of morals/ethics/justice...
to be just or moral, I must treat everyone equally, but within the context
of our interaction with another, we might treat someone differently due
to class or being an individual or due to context... it takes wisdom
tell the difference or understanding the context of our interaction with
others...

There are no blanket statements about being moral or just or ethically...
but it does begin with the understanding that we react and treat
others with equality...

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

the class of black men and the class of Japanese men
are equal... thus we treat them equal.. and by doing so,
we are moral, ethical, just.... if I treat a black man differently
because he is black.. not a man, but a black man, I am not
treating him equally, or just or morally...

and we can find our telos, our goal and meaning/purpose within
the equal treatment of others based on class... in seeking justice
and in seeking morals and in seeking ethical treatment of others,
we can find telos... in the equal treatment of people within a class,
be it blacks, or whites or Jews or gays or Chinese men or women or children,
we find justice, and moral/ethics in the equal treatment of others
in a class....

Kropotkin
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Agent Smith
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Agent Smith »

The telos of a human life is to seek & achieve ananada (bliss). It's that simple.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Agent Smith wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:20 am The telos of a human life is to seek & achieve ananada (bliss). It's that simple.

K: and what is bliss and does this ''bliss" have any type of social/communal aspect?
in other words, can bliss only be about an individual or can bliss have
a community part to it?

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Agent Smith
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Agent Smith »

The individual & The group both seek & must attain ananada (bliss) mon ami! It's a wicked problem and everybody knows it; we're just, for some, probably psychological, reason, loathe to admit this plain and simple fact of life.
Last edited by Agent Smith on Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
promethean75
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by promethean75 »

a complete hedonic calculus is not possible, keter propotkin, so we cannot know what kind of environment would be required to facilitate the best quality of pleasure for the longest amount of time for the largest number of people at the lowest possible cost.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Agent Smith »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:57 pm a complete hedonic calculus is not possible, keter propotkin, so we cannot know what kind of environment would be required to facilitate the best quality of pleasure for the longest amount of time for the largest number of people at the lowest possible cost.
Excellent post!
Skepdick
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:30 pm As I have noted before, Telos is one's goal or purpose...

And look at your life today, what is your life telos?
The purpose of a system is what it does (POSIWID)

Telos is a stupid idea...
there is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do
If the purpose of philosophy is to ascertain the true nature of reality, yet it constantly fails to do so then the purpose of philosophy is to constaintly fail to ascertain the true nature of reality.
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attofishpi
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by attofishpi »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:20 am
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:30 pm As I have noted before, Telos is one's goal or purpose...

And look at your life today, what is your life telos?
The purpose of a system is what it does (POSIWID)

Telos is a stupid idea...
there is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do
If the purpose of philosophy is to ascertain the true nature of reality, yet it constantly fails to do so then the purpose of philosophy is to constaintly fail to ascertain the true nature of reality.
Excellent post!
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Joseph Campbell wrote this:

If you follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Wherever you are — if you are following your bliss, you are enjoying that refreshment, that life within you, all the time.

K: However, that is a rather glib statement, for it really means nothing...
what if I were to say, to follow my bliss, to live the life I ought to be living,
I might say, to find my bliss, I ought to be allowed to sodomize children and
then kill them and eat them for breakfast.... that is following my bliss...

and you might say, legitimately, that my actions are illegal, immoral,
depraved...and its common sense that my actions are indeed,
wrong on every level..

and I might say, again legitimately, that I am only following my bliss,
as you said I should.... how is following one's bliss, wrong or immoral
or even depraved? Why should a state or a society tell me what
my bliss is and how I should follow their rules which doesn't bring
me bliss?

And at no point did you bring up common sense or I must obey a
state or a society.. you said to follow my bliss.. and I am...
by torturing and killing babies.....

even in following one's bliss, there are limits.. and what are those limits
and why those limits and not another set of limits?

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

let us take this to a wider sphere...

Let us say, to follow my own and my society bliss,
I follow the Germans and jail and put into ovens, Jews....
If I were to accept this idea of following one's bliss, within
an individual and within a society, then how was the Holocaust
wrong or immoral? A Germen citizen might, legitimately, say
that the Holocaust was simply us, collectively following our bliss...
and who are we to deny the German people their bliss?
Who are we to say that an entire people were wrong when in
following our own American bliss, we practiced genocide on
the Native American population....

NO, to say we should individually or collectively "follow our bliss",
leads us to going places from which there is no return..
we can, by justifying our actions to following our bliss,
we can justify murder, rape, torture and genocide...

Kropotkin
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Modern times and Telos...

Post by ThinkOfOne »

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Last edited by ThinkOfOne on Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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