reasonable men in unreasonable times

[Peter Kropotkin]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

[commonsense]

Calmly speak the truth in tones that will not inflame the opposition. Reasonable people with cool heads and open minds will respond favorably to what you say. That way you may be able to budge people who are in the middle slightly to your side. As for the rest, they will never change their minds anyway.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

You do realise that America is not the entire planet, and that others countries really don't give a shit about your domestic collective insanity?

[Gary Childress]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

There are perhaps two temperaments to the world, wanting something to change and not wanting something to change. And it's difficult as all hell to determine which is really happening.

[Age]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

Of which EVERY one of them could be portraying SWAYED versions of what ACTUALLY took place.

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how SHALLOW and NARROWED some people REALLY WERE, back in those days.

This is an INTERNATIONAL FORUM, but some speak and write as though the very small and tiny parcel of land on which they lived on was ALL there is.

LOOK, what is happening in so-called "america", in the days when this is being written, is relatively NOTHING in the scheme of things.

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

In what 'world' does what the so-called "red" or "blue", or "right" or "left", do REALLY matter?

And, WHY do if not ALL, then a LOT of the threads you start are about some 'thing' but end up being about the "right" and the "left"?

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

If one BELIEVES 'in "america"', then that one is as MENTALLY UNSTABLE as those who BELIEVE 'in God' is male gendered and/or created the Universe.

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

If one puts their support in "others" UNEQUALLY, and NOT in ALL, EQUALLY, then that itself is just plain old STUPID, and UNREASONABLE.

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

Some people think that being continually FIXATED ON such a VERY NARROWED and SMALL view of things, is INSANE, NONSENSICAL, and UNREASONABLE. But this will NOT stop you from doing what you continually do here. Or, will it?

Do you think that you continually repeating more or less the EXACT SAME things is going to CHANGE the way "others" LOOK AT and SEE things here?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

Even you just said it; For EVERY 'action', there is an equal, and OPPOSITE, 'reaction'.

Which therefore MEANS 'things' will work themselves out, for the better.

EVERY 'thing' has an OPPOSITE, and BOTH sit in EQUILIBRIUM.

If one 'thing' does NOT FIT IN, PERFECTLY, (with EVERY thing ELSE), then 'it' will NOT survive. There is another relatively 'old', or 'new', statement that says; Survival of the FITTEST. Which, by the way, means, or refers to, NOT the MISINTERPRETATION, which a lot of 'you', adult human beings, had, in the days when this was being written.

[Age]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

There are perhaps two temperaments to the world, wanting something to change and not wanting something to change. And it's difficult as all hell to determine which is really happening.

Besides BELIEFS, themselves, EVERY thing else CAN and DOES CHANGE.

[Walker]

After their unreasonable policies create an unreasonable world,
after the caca hits the fan,
unreasonable men often call for their reasonable victims
to quit complaining, to do duty, to pay taxes,
to get their minds right and think correctly,
to be proud to die fighting in a war caused by the unreasonableness of others,
some of those others being the same folks
calling for reason.

Trump kept the country out of wars. He intimidated evil.

Biden has created a weak country in all respects, and predators are licking their chops.

[Walker]

You do realise that America is not the entire planet, and that others countries really don't give a shit about your domestic collective insanity?

Without the USofA, China eats New Zealand.

I'll give you a man who wants to rule the world. - Bowie

And the world will call him ... (Xi Jinping)

[Walker]

Besides BELIEFS, themselves, EVERY thing else CAN and DOES CHANGE.

Such a reasonable statement calls for emotion to flavour sterile intellectualism ... caps or music.

Everything Must Change
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_6OuSQ3znY

[Gary Childress]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

There are perhaps two temperaments to the world, wanting something to change and not wanting something to change. And it's difficult as all hell to determine which is really happening.

Besides BELIEFS, themselves, EVERY thing else CAN and DOES CHANGE.

Certainly, everything changes in superficial ways. But, at the macro level, is it really changing all that much?

[Age]

There are perhaps two temperaments to the world, wanting something to change and not wanting something to change. And it's difficult as all hell to determine which is really happening.

Besides BELIEFS, themselves, EVERY thing else CAN and DOES CHANGE.

Certainly, everything changes in superficial ways.

What do you mean by 'superficial ways'?

But, at the macro level, is it really changing all that much?

It does NOT matter.

If some 'thing' is CHANGING, in ANY way, then 'it' IS CHANGING.

How much, or how little, like ALL 'things' is just relative to the observer.

From the perspective, of what 'you' call 'the macro level', entering a 'black hole' IS CHANGE, being a galaxy and colliding with another one IS CHANGE. Just circling around a star/sun IS CHANGE.

Just like absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer, absolutely EVERY thing, besides beliefs, themselves, of course, DO CHANGE.

CHANGING of how much, or of how little, is of NO matter here.

[Iwannaplato]

I am a bit of an amateur historian... I have read hundreds of
histories and own a couple of hundred history books...

At this point and time, we are at a critical junction in American
history.. we are presented with two roads.... one road follows
the past and holds to the traditional understanding of America
and what it stands for, and the other road is the attempted
demolition of American values and institutions...

The MAGA/GOP has attacked every single institution that America
has... from the Media.. (fake news) to the FBI to the CDC to
the courts, from the SCOTUS to the state courts, the presidency,
to the police to the congress... I am hard pressed to think of
an institution that the right wing hasn't attacked.. I have
seen right wingers with T-shirts saying "better red than liberal"
that means that would rather be in Russia than the U.S...
and I have seen conservatives praise Putin and not Biden..
and in what world does that make sense unless you want Russia
to take over the world...

IQ45 has multiple times, praised dictators of all kinds, and he
claims that Biden is some sort of crook... in what world does
that make sense if you believe in America?

The conservatives have quite clearly put their support behind
a wannabe dictator... and how is that being a "reasonable"
man? To support other countries head of state before your own,
that is being "unreasonable"

Reasonable: (of a person) having sound judgement; fair and sensible...
2. based on good sense.....

so how "reasonable" is the denial of wearing masks for political reasons,
or how "reasonable" is it to promote another head of state over your own?
How "reasonable" is it to falsely claim that there is some "vast" conspiracy
to turn America into a fascist state under the "Left" and the only savior
is a six-time bankruptcy, failure... and to describe IQ45 as a failure is to
understate his complete and total incompetence....

so how does one stay "reasonable" in the face of this insane nonsense?

There is an old physics statement that says this: for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction..

and in response to the incredible and ongoing right-wing shift toward conspiracies
and love of fascist dictators like Putin and Erdogan, and attempting
to tear down American institutions like schools, IRS, FBI, the CDC...
among other institutions that that the right wing would destroy if
given a half of chance... how should a "reasonable" person respond
to the open attacks on the trust we have in our
institutions and values like freedom and security along with attacks on
the social security and Medcare...

So, how should a "reasonable" person respond?

Kropotkin

You could ask them what they mean by things. Listen. Point out things. Listen.
Or you could write long posts where you oversimplify, choose your own interpretions, make it seems like there are only two options and they have chosen the bad one. I'll let you mull over the choice.

A hint is that what you did here has been done millions of times. I know it's odd but it hasn't made things better yet. But keep on dividing the world up into two groups, oversimplifying the situation and the positions of those not on your team, insult them implicitly or explicitly....Maybe the 43 millionth time someone does this it suddenly starts improving the world.

[Peter Kropotkin]

as I never put all my "marbles" into one post or thread,
I was kinda hoping people would pick up on one point...
this question of what defines being "reasonable" and what
defines being "unreasonable"...

Being "reasonable" or being "unreasonable" comes down
to questions of "being" of birth, "education" our background,
our socio-economic situation, our childhood indoctrinations...

For example, I can say with confidence, that people who believe in
god are reasonable and I can also say with confidence that people who
believe in god are unreasonable and I can be right in both cases...

the thread in question comes down to how people define reasonable or
unreasonable...and depending on our own values and beliefs and
childhood indoctrinations, the exact same belief can be both
reasonable and unreasonable... depending on who is doing the counting...

so those who say I am being ''binary'' miss the point... that any belief we
hold can be called and "rightfully" so, reasonable and unreasonable

so Kropotkin, how do we tell the difference? and therein lies the
problem... how do we tell the difference?
what criteria do we use to work out our real world problems?

Kropotkin