Telos...

For all things philosophical.

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Peter Kropotkin
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Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:34 pm Next up.

How to go about evaluating the current situation.

How to go about evaluating which values are best for the current situation.

Easy peasy :lol:
K: that I have done for years, here and at ILP... I have stated my values
of choice literarily for years.. and I have expressed my understanding of
the current situation, in just about every single post/thread I make...
for example, this thread, Telos, is just another examination of the
current situation.. and practically every single thread/post I make,
explores what I think/believe the current situation to be and possible
solutions..

Kropotkin
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phyllo
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Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Telos...

Post by phyllo »

...to overcome doesn't flow from
the state to the individual, but flows from the individual to the state...
we cannot overcome a society/state values/moral/ethics until it
has been overcome within us individually.. the process flow from
the one, the individual to the many, the state... so, yes, the
process does travel from me to the state/society...
That's a particularly Western point of view.
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phyllo
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Re: Telos...

Post by phyllo »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:42 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:34 pm Next up.

How to go about evaluating the current situation.

How to go about evaluating which values are best for the current situation.

Easy peasy :lol:
K: that I have done for years, here and at ILP... I have stated my values
of choice literarily for years.. and I have expressed my understanding of
the current situation, in just about every single post/thread I make...
for example, this thread, Telos, is just another examination of the
current situation.. and practically every single thread/post I make,
explores what I think/believe the current situation to be and possible
solutions..

Kropotkin
Solutions?

Don't you keep saying that you only have questions and no answers?

Aside from that, your evaluations are based on a distorted, stereotypical view of conservatives.
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:50 pm
...to overcome doesn't flow from
the state to the individual, but flows from the individual to the state...
we cannot overcome a society/state values/moral/ethics until it
has been overcome within us individually.. the process flow from
the one, the individual to the many, the state... so, yes, the
process does travel from me to the state/society...
That's a particularly Western point of view.
K; and as stated, I cannot escape my being an "western" man or having a western
point of view...I simply cannot... my values, viewpoint, morals, grasp
of what it means to be human, must be "western".. I cannot pretend
to know or grasp what it means to be human from a Muslim viewpoint
or a Japanese viewpoint... I am limited by my own background
and birth to have a limited viewpoint... at best, I can only do is what I
have suggested which is a reevaluation of those "western" values
I was raised with.. I cannot escape from that limited viewpoint,
but I can examine that viewpoint to see if that viewpoint is my viewpoint...
or if another "western" viewpoint is more in line with my values and
beliefs.. I just can't go outside of those values due to my childhood
indoctrinations...I just can't suddenly hold the values of Ancient Greece
or hold the values of a black person because I am not black nor was I raised
within those values... I can't project myself into values or beliefs that lie
outside of my experience..

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:55 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:42 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:34 pm Next up.

How to go about evaluating the current situation.

How to go about evaluating which values are best for the current situation.

Easy peasy :lol:
K: that I have done for years, here and at ILP... I have stated my values
of choice literarily for years.. and I have expressed my understanding of
the current situation, in just about every single post/thread I make...
for example, this thread, Telos, is just another examination of the
current situation.. and practically every single thread/post I make,
explores what I think/believe the current situation to be and possible
solutions..

Kropotkin
Solutions?

Don't you keep saying that you only have questions and no answers?

Aside from that, your evaluations are based on a distorted, stereotypical view of conservatives.
K: I have studied conservatism for decades... I once spent two years reading only
books on conservatism.. I have hundreds of books on conservatism..
and yes, I only have questions....but that doesn't mean I can't speculate
or wonder as to possible answers... as I have stated before, I believe in
questions, not answers... and why? Because at this time, I believe we are
having problems as a society/state and individually, is because
we are engaged in solutions and not in asking questions, the right
questions... what made scientist like Newton and Einstein great,
was not the answers they produced but the questions they asked...

We are not asking the right questions and thus we are getting the
wrong answers.. ask the right questions, and the solution/answers
becomes a bit more clear...not always, but usually...

Kropotkin
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phyllo
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Re: Telos...

Post by phyllo »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:34 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:50 pm
...to overcome doesn't flow from
the state to the individual, but flows from the individual to the state...
we cannot overcome a society/state values/moral/ethics until it
has been overcome within us individually.. the process flow from
the one, the individual to the many, the state... so, yes, the
process does travel from me to the state/society...
That's a particularly Western point of view.
K; and as stated, I cannot escape my being an "western" man or having a western
point of view...I simply cannot... my values, viewpoint, morals, grasp
of what it means to be human, must be "western".. I cannot pretend
to know or grasp what it means to be human from a Muslim viewpoint
or a Japanese viewpoint... I am limited by my own background
and birth to have a limited viewpoint... at best, I can only do is what I
have suggested which is a reevaluation of those "western" values
I was raised with.. I cannot escape from that limited viewpoint,
but I can examine that viewpoint to see if that viewpoint is my viewpoint...
or if another "western" viewpoint is more in line with my values and
beliefs.. I just can't go outside of those values due to my childhood
indoctrinations...I just can't suddenly hold the values of Ancient Greece
or hold the values of a black person because I am not black nor was I raised
within those values... I can't project myself into values or beliefs that lie
outside of my experience..

Kropotkin
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein

It seems that a lot of our problems come from a western point of view. Solutions need to come by adopting a different point of view.
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:59 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:34 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:50 pm That's a particularly Western point of view.
K; and as stated, I cannot escape my being an "western" man or having a western
point of view...I simply cannot... my values, viewpoint, morals, grasp
of what it means to be human, must be "western".. I cannot pretend
to know or grasp what it means to be human from a Muslim viewpoint
or a Japanese viewpoint... I am limited by my own background
and birth to have a limited viewpoint... at best, I can only do is what I
have suggested which is a reevaluation of those "western" values
I was raised with.. I cannot escape from that limited viewpoint,
but I can examine that viewpoint to see if that viewpoint is my viewpoint...
or if another "western" viewpoint is more in line with my values and
beliefs.. I just can't go outside of those values due to my childhood
indoctrinations...I just can't suddenly hold the values of Ancient Greece
or hold the values of a black person because I am not black nor was I raised
within those values... I can't project myself into values or beliefs that lie
outside of my experience..

P: We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein
It seems that a lot of our problems come from a western point of view. Solutions need to come by adopting a different point of view.

K: and I agree with you but I think the problem is more basic than what you say....
I believe that we aren't even at the solutions stage... when we can't get millions
of people to agree that we even have issues like climate change or
that income inequality is a problem... we can't even agree that there is a
problem and what is the nature of that problem...

we are still at the point of agreeing that there is a problem, little
less being to agree on a solution... we aren't even at square one,
agreement to a having a problem, that being able to agree that
there is a problem is square one.. my goal is to get people to
at least think that what they believe in is part of the problem, and
the basis of my attacks on conservative/MAGA types.. (that their
thinking and beliefs is part of the ongoing problems we face)
and until we get some sort of census as to even having a problem,
solutions are still quite a bit away...

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

that for me, it isn't Christianity that is the problem,
it is the vast hypocrisy of Christians that is the problem..
the enormous gap between Christian's belief and their actions,
that is a major problem in America today..

indeed, the gap between one's belief and one's actions is
one of the major problems we face in our modern age...
between what we practice and what we preach...
this hypocrisy is at the heart of America today..
from big business to our politics, to our government,
to our ''leaders"... all engage in hypocrisy between actions
and words..

this basic and fundamental problem of America today isn't even
being addressed anywhere, by anyone...
it is accepted as "business as usual" instead of being called out...

I think, but can't prove, that part of the hypocrisy today
stems from our inability to work out some sort of "telos"
for ourselves... some sort of goal or purpose would take out
quite a bit of the modern-day hypocrisy that we see today...

to hold people accountable isn't done in America today and we
pay the price in our political, social, economic and philosophical
world today....

so, we are still at the basics in our understanding of the
world today...
and on what grounds would be justified to hold people
accountability for their words and actions?


Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: Telos...

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

one way to think of this problem is by thinking of what system
do we have in place to hold people accountable?

One might say the justice system... but the fact is justice is
actually equality... to be just is to be equal.. to hold every one
equal for their actions and that is clearly not the case in the
American judicial system..
we have a two track justice system, one for the rich and powerful,
see the crimes committed by IQ45 and nuclear secrets in which
anyone else would already be serving a lifetime prison sentence..
and in which the wealthy and big corporations escape justice by
influencing it with massive donations to DA's and various
AG one the state level...

we clearly don't have a system in place political or socially or
economically to engage in justice, equal holding accountability
for all citizens in America today...

and therein lies part of the problem today.... even if we
wanted to, we are unable to hold people accountable for
actions or words... remember "words matter"

Kropotkin
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phyllo
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Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Telos...

Post by phyllo »

K: and I agree with you but I think the problem is more basic than what you say....
I believe that we aren't even at the solutions stage... when we can't get millions
of people to agree that we even have issues like climate change or
that income inequality is a problem... we can't even agree that there is a
problem and what is the nature of that problem...

we are still at the point of agreeing that there is a problem, little
less being to agree on a solution... we aren't even at square one,
agreement to a having a problem, that being able to agree that
there is a problem is square one.. my goal is to get people to
at least think that what they believe in is part of the problem, and
the basis of my attacks on conservative/MAGA types.. (that their
thinking and beliefs is part of the ongoing problems we face)
and until we get some sort of census as to even having a problem,
solutions are still quite a bit away...
Most conservatives are not the evil bastards that you make them out to be. Your attacks on conservatives are creating an us and them situation. You're driving the moderates onto the defensive and towards the extreme end. You're doing more harm than good. You need to bring them closer rather than driving them away.

Why isn't income inequality seen as a problem? Because we are starting out with the point of view that income and wealth are a measure of personal merit.
If we adopted the POV that merit is not based in wealth and income, then people would be more open to closing the income gap because their personal ego would not be at stake.

The same sort of issue exists with respect to climate change. We start out with the POV that growth and consumption are necessary and good. Therefore, changes to climate are either denied or deemed to be unavoidable in order to sustain the growth.
And again, we need to adopt a POV which is based on sustainable consumption and little or no growth.
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