iambiguous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:45 pm
Look, with the British monarchy being politically toothless...a ritualistic, ceremonial spectacle put on enabling some "in their heads" to link the present with the past...it's a pale imitation of an actual political conflict.
And, again, the irony here being that in regard to your own personal opinions about it, I construe them to be the embodiment of dasein...as fabricated subjectively out in a particular world understood in a particular way...as largely unfolding within the existential parameters of your individual life. Had your life been different for any number of reasons you might be here devastated by the queen's death.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:30 amYeah, sure. Though this has little to do with what I wrote.
Well, to the extent that what you wrote is construed by you to be a personal opinion about the Queen, it has, in my view, everything to do with it.
The crucial point being that, this being a philosophy forum, there was not appear [to me] to be a way for philosophers, using the technical tools are their disposal, to assess how all rational -- wise -- men and women ought to react to it.
Same thing indeed. Many members here have either personal opinions or political convictions about Queen Elizabeth's life and death. Often they are in conflict. So,
is there a way for philosophers "to assess how all rational -- wise -- men and women
ought to react to them?"
What could possibly be of more importance
in a philosophy forum? Otherwise, in regard to things like the monarchy and guns and abortion and race and gender and sexual orientation etc., we can all just say "it's just my own personal opinion"...and that ends it? Well, until those on either end of the ideological spectrum actually gain political power. And then others are punished for not having the "right" personal opinion. About Jews for example. Historically as it were.
Thus again...
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:22 pmYou are not taking responsibility. You are blaming others and using pejorative terms for them, since they will say anything anyone says is deemed political. So, it seems negative when they do this.
I'm sure it seemed negative to the Jews back in Nazi Germany. And when racists and sexists and homophobes and small government fanatics intent on chopping up the welfare state insist they are only expressing their own personal opinions about these issues, sure, we can leave it at that.
After all, they might not act on these opinions once in power, right?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:32 amthat's not a response to what I wrote. My post was about not grieving her death.
From my frame of mind, this all revolves around different distinctions that we make between "personal opinions" and "political convictions"...out in the real world where we may intend one thing rather than the [an]other but others are often more than willing to insist it must be as they construe it.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:30 amJesus, your responses are completely abstract and generalized. A specific person, you, labeling something another specific person, me, said as political. When asked repeatedly why you view it as poltical, you blame fanatics who will or might, though they didn't. Only you did.
I've tried to explain why, aside from the introspective motive and intention of any particular individuals in regard to queens and kings and monarchies and democracies -- their own "personal opinions" -- what is of far more importance [to me] is how others react to it out in the world of actual human interactions.
And far from being abstract, I note all of this in regard to the Holocaust and the death of Queen Elizabeth; and in regard to such moral and political conflagrations as guns and abortion and race and gender and sexual orientation. Given any particular context here, see how far "it's just my personal opinion" gets you.
Then the even more important part [for me] of how all of this is rooted existentially
in dasein rather than in anything the tools of philosophers can provide us.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:30 amAbove you even mention that different people will view it as personal or political depending. But not you. You manage to label some people as fanatics, though you know that others will not do that. You manage to use pejortative terms for convervative policies and attitudes, but tend not to do this for liberal ones.
That's because both my "personal opinions" and my "political
prejudices" are fractured and fragmented "given the profoundly problematic, rooted existentially in dasein" assumptions that "I" make here:
If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:30 amBut you can't manage to have your own, yes, mere, opinion, yes, based on dasein, about my saying I didn't grieve the queen. IOW you can weigh in with your personal opinion on all sorts of things, but not this.
Sigh...
"I" hear the arguments of those on both sides of the issue. And in the past when I was an objectivist myself, I would have come down solid one way or the other. As, say, a devout Christian or a devout Marxist. Now however "I" recognize that there are arguments for and against monarchy and democracy, for and against capitalism and socialism, for and against idealism and pragmatism, for and against collectivist narratives and individualist narratives, for and against genes and memes.
I'm far, far, far more "drawn and quartered" regarding "conflicting goods". Something that the fulminating fanatic objectivists here are anything but.
As for accusations of this sort...
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:30 amIs it because I pointed out the issue? You can express your personal opinions, yes, based on dasein, when you decide or on impulse, but if someone else brings up the issue or seems critical you can't manage? Then, it's all about other people and you are a mere cipher for their potential fanatical interpretations.
This is a simple basic human interaction thing. Hey, you called thta political, do you really react that way? And I get, yes, again and again intellectual contraptions and it simply cannot be uttered on your part. Yes, I thought that was political. Your opinion struck me, Iambigiuous as poltical. Or....No, for me it isn't political, though I expect others will or may react that way. The latter would seem to be the case since you keep saying it will be fanatics who will react to it as political.
Notice even there, you manage to have an opinion about them. That they are fanaticals. YOu manage to express an opinion with YOUR OWN PERSONAL REACTION right there.
...choose an issue -- a "conflicting good" -- that is of particular importance to you. One that carries weight for us far beyond the [to me] "queen is dead!" bullshit here on this thread. I started it only in order to explore dasein.
Let us compare our own moral philosophies. Then as the exchange unfolds relating to this issue, you can note particular instances of the things you accuse me of here.
An exchange along the lines of gib and me over at ILP:
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=197767
Just focus in on the exchanges between me and gib and magnus anderson and maia...ignore the riff raff element that has now taken over ILP. This thread may well end up being the last actual philosophical exchange over there.