Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:30 pm
Indeed, there is no evidence that heaven or hell exists.
AGE: There is NOT just 'evidence', there is ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE 'PROOF' that 'heaven' AND 'hell' do ACTUALLY exist.
The reason WHY some people BELIEVE there is NO evidence AT ALL that 'heaven' and 'hell' exist is because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for the words 'heaven' and 'hell', and more so because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for WHERE 'heaven' AND 'hell' are MEANT TO BE existing.
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:30 pm
However, you are literally surrounded in a vast abundance of, at least, "circumstantial" evidence that something
"intelligent" is responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe.
K: AND again, there is no evidence that there is a heaven, hell or god.. not to mention
that there isn't even evidence for an "intelligence" that "is responsible for the unfathomable
order of the universe"
AGE: otherwise, you are defaulting to the
utterly absurd notion that it's all the result of the blind and mindless processes of
"chance."
K: It isn't chance, but simple following the laws of physics and science that created our universe..
"kropotkin", 'you' have MISQUOTED me, as it was "seeds" who wrote that last one.
Relatively speaking this could be disputed, as well as refuted. But anyway,
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
and how I see the universe very different today than I did 40
years ago..
Well this is just PLAIN OBVIOUS.
Do you KNOW of ANY one who SEES 'the Universe' EXACTLY THE SAME 40 years on?
Even 'the human race', collectively, SEE the 'Universe' VERY DIFFERENTLY than they did 40 years ago, just like the way 'you' SEE the 'Universe', in the days when this was being written, It was VERY DIFFERENT than how 'we' SEE the 'Universe', NOW.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
there are two primary forces in the universe, the tendency for order
and the tendency for disorder/chaos which is called "Entropy"
'Order' and/or 'disorder' can be VERY RELATIVE.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
if there was a battle in the universe, that is it. Our energy is spent
during on our time on planet earth to either work for order or to work for disorder...
OR, one can just 'sit back', as some say, and just WATCH and OBSERVE what is REALLY going on HERE.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
I am 63, I see the effects of disorder/entropy on my body every single day..
REALLY?
Some of 'us' just SEE Nature, at work.
See, some of 'us' do NOT LOOK FOR 'eithers/ors' NOR for 'positives/negatives', 'we' instead just LOOK AT 'things' EXACTLY how they ARE.
Some people, as it is said, LOOK AT 'things' as being 'the glass half full or half empty', whereas there are "others" who just LOOK AT 'things' as they Truly ARE. That is; the liquid is half way, and as some might say, in equilibrium, EXACTLY like the 'Universe' IS IN.
Absolutely EVERY 'thing' is IN a Truly Natural process ALL leading up to what is about to happen, and occur.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
to grow old is to go from order to disorder.. we cannot stop disorder or
entropy from being present in our lives/body...
As I was POINTING OUT and SHOWING before, some of 'us' SEE 'things' VERY DIFFERENTLY from how 'you' DID back 40 years ago when this was being written. See, what 'we' OBSERVE and SEE is although the human body APPEARS to 'grow old', and what you call, 'going from order to disorder', 'we' call just a Truly Natural evolutionary process. (REALLY thee One Thing is just CHANGING in shape and form, and NOT 'getting old' AT ALL. But this was a far bit of LEARNING to do, back in 'your' days before this is Truly UNDERSTOOD and SEEN.)
Oh, and by the way, 'you' NEVER 'grow old', as 'you' are ALWAYS becoming 'anew'. (If ANY one is Truly interested this can also be FULLY, and IRREFUTABLY, explained, along with absolutely EVERY thing else I talk about and say here, in this forum.)
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
and when our bodies
become disordered enough, we die...
Did you NOT KNOW this 40 years ago, from when you wrote this?
Also, and by the way, thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' IS VERY DIFFERENT from what you just said and wrote here.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
death is nothing more than disorder
'Death', like 'birth', is, also, VERY RELATIVE.
Also, if 'death' is NOTHING MORE than 'disorder', then this would self-refute your CLAIM that 'growing old' is 'disorder' or 'entropy', and that you can NOT stop them from 'being present' in your lives or your bodies.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
winning the primary battle in our lives...
What did you think or BELIEVE you were 'battling'?
You were NOT REALLY 'trying to' 'live' FOREVER, were you?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
one often hears about the end
of the universe, and that end is the final victory of disorder/entropy over
the universe...
Some also HEAR that the Universe actually BEGAN. But NOT EVERY thing one HEARS, especially in those days when this was being written, is even remotely true, let alone ACTUALLY True.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
so for me, I ask, are you an agent of order or disorder?
As I mentioned above 'I' am NOT a so-called 'agent' for ANY thing other than what is ACTUALLY IRREFUTABLY True.
And, so-called 'order' OR 'disorder' is just a Truly DISTORTED WAY to 'try to' LOOK AT and SEE 'things'.
That WAY of LOOKING AT and SEE 'things' is like asking;
Is it 'nature' OR 'nurture'.
Is it 'creation' OR 'evolution'.
Is it 'free will' OR 'determinism'.
What came first, 'the chicken' OR 'the egg'? Or,
Any of the other 'this' OR 'that', or, 'one' OR 'the other', so-called 'philosophical questions'.
This is where the True BATTLE LAYS, as there, REALLY, is NO 'one' OR 'the other' scenarios here.
With ALL these BOTH EXIST, EQUALLY.
See, the WAY one LOOKS AT 'things', influences how they then SEE 'things'.
And, SADLY, through a VERY DISTORTED WAY of 'educating', 'you', adult human beings, have been 'taught', and thus have also 'grown up', to LOOK AT and SEE 'things' from this VERY DISTORTED WAY of 'this' OR 'that'. The idea of 'debate', and teaching 'debating', has been CAUSED and CREATED this DISTORTED 'thinking', or DISTORTED WAY of LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things'.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
Not so surprisingly is that I consider those who fight for disorder
as being wrong.. but equally not so surprisingly are the ones
who I think are fighting for disorder,
Did you mean 'order', for one of these 'disorders'?
And, WHY would ANY one even so-call 'fight' for 'one' OR 'the other' of these 'things'.
To me, 'order' NOR 'disorder' REALLY have absolutely ANY thing to do with the 'Universe', Itself.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
I hold those who engage in certain political, social, economic
and philosophical beliefs, to be engaging in the act of
promoting disorder, so to name names, I hold conservatives
and believers in religion as being agents of disorder,
And what is 'disorder', to you, EXACTLY?
Is it the process of just 'growing old', as you called 'disorder', or is 'disorder' just 'death' itself, as you also called 'disorder'? Or, is 'disorder' some other thing.
Either way, if ANY of these 'disordered' things are NOT just a Natural process anyway, then what are they, EXACTLY?
And, if you HOLD some people, with very particular and specific views, as so-called "agents of disorder", does this mean that 'you' are a so-called "agent of order"?
If yes, then what does the 'order' word refer to, to you, EXACTLY?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
I also hold that those who believe in capitalism to engage
in disorder..
Does this also mean that you HOLD those who BELIEVE in the opposite of 'capitalism' to engage in 'order', and, if the word 'disorder' refers to 'growing old' and/or 'death', to you, then does the 'order' word refer to 'growing young' or 'birth'?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
I hold that those who promote dictatorships
like Trumpism/Nazism to engage in disorder...
Okay, but SO WHAT?
A LOT of 'you', people, back in those days when this was being written, 'HELD' a LOT of things, which ended up been SEEN and UNDERSTOOD as being Truly and ABSOLUTELY STUPID, ABSURD, and RIDICULOUS.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
Now think about it instead of just blindly attacking me as being
wrong....
WHO are you DIRECTING this 'attack' at here, EXACTLY, 'me' or 'seeds'?
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm
what is my focal point in regard, to what brings about
order and disorder in our part of the universe?
Kropotkin
What 'brings' 'order' and/or 'disorder', in that absolutely TINY and INSIGNIFICANT part of the Universe, is just the WAY some of 'you', human beings, THINK ABOUT and SEE things.
As I was SAYING 'order' or 'disorder/chaos' is VERY RELATIVE. One can OBSERVE and SEE this by just LOOKING AT the WAY 'things' ARE in one home from another one.
And, do NOT forget that earth is One home, (from other homes?), within the Universe.
I SEE 'order' and 'disorder/chaos' MORE SO just in RELATION to the way 'you', adult human beings, behave and misbehave rather than I do in the Universe, Itself.