IS and OUGHT

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Astro Cat
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 am
promethean75 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:45 pm Please forgive Henry, Harbal, Immanuel and Belinda's behavior, AC. I can't take them anywhere and I find myself often having to apologize on their behalf.
I don’t mind threads meandering :)

My bringing it up was just a reminder to those involved in that one (without putting pressure on them, I just mean I don’t want the topic forgotten)
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Astro Cat
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:46 am
Astro Cat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm At some point I want to get back to why we ought to care what God values, and I feel like there was then a second debate after that (I'll have to go find it).
No problem. Can we focus that?

On the surface, the question answers itself: "Because God is God." But I suppose there will be more to the question, so I won't say that.

I suspect it still involves the mistake of thinking there are things or actions that can be rightly assigned an objective "value" without reference to the character and wishes of God, or that the act of valuing can confer some objective value of that sort...but I'll wait and see.
Typing on a tiny screen.

What about God being God makes it that we ought to value the same things as God?

I know you have argued that creators of creations can impart oughts on creations, but if that’s the direction you’re taking, what’s the argument?

If you imply the existence of a “right,” then what is a right? Would a “right” be assigned an objective value without reference to the character and wishes of God? If so, what is it supposed to be? (If not, if a “right” is defined by something like goodness, which you say is just defined by God’s character and values, then the same objection applies: why ought anyone care if they don’t value what God thinks about something?)

You see, if you assert there is such a thing as a “right,” it doesn’t solve the problem: either it is something objective about reality outside of God and you must define what that is somehow, or it’s just another thing God simply wants and we can again ask “well, why should we care?”
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Astro Cat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm At some point I want to get back to why we ought to care what God values, and I feel like there was then a second debate after that (I'll have to go find it).
"That was some weird shit"
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:46 am
Astro Cat wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:21 pm At some point I want to get back to why we ought to care what God values, and I feel like there was then a second debate after that (I'll have to go find it).
No problem. Can we focus that?

On the surface, the question answers itself: "Because God is God." But I suppose there will be more to the question, so I won't say that.

I suspect it still involves the mistake of thinking there are things or actions that can be rightly assigned an objective "value" without reference to the character and wishes of God, or that the act of valuing can confer some objective value of that sort...but I'll wait and see.

it's possible to believe God exists, or that God is Good, without also believing that God revealed Himself to Immanuel Can or even to Moses.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Astro Cat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:23 am What about God being God makes it that we ought to value the same things as God?
Many things. For one, He's our Creator, which means that the only reason we actually exist in the first place is because He created us. And He did so with a specific purpose and intention in mind; a creature that fails to actualize that intended purpose is malfunctioning and missing out on its most blessed and happy kind of life, and failing to achieve the best trajectory of life.

Think of somebody trying to use a cell phone as if it were a hammer. It might plausibly work...maybe even suceed at drivng in a nail or two. But it would shatter the phone, and it would never have achieved all the things it can really achieve.

Now, that's just an object, of course; so that tragedy is not great -- and we could all stand to bust our cell phones from time to time. :wink: But the analogy with a human being is tragic. For a person to "use" his life for purposes other than entering into a loving relationship with God is to abuse himself, denying God what is His by right and also denying himself the fulfillment of his own greatest destiny. And if we wonder why so many lives end up broken, shattered and futile, it's not by chance.
I know you have argued that creators of creations can impart oughts on creations, but if that’s the direction you’re taking, what’s the argument?
Call that one "the teleological argument for obeying God." But it's not the only one, of course. I began with a slightly different argument, one we might call "the anthropogenic argument for obeying God," which is that God created us in the first place, and so nothing we have or choose is owed to anyone else, ultimately. We might also have other arguments, like one from gratitude, one from righteousness, one based on power, and so on. There are, in fact, a multitude of reasons why God deserves the primary focus of our attentions, efforts and loyalty, and why departing from His intentions for us personally is ruinous.

But let us now reverse the case, as I suggested before: let's ask, "If we posit that God doesn't own us, and doesn't have such rights in relation to us, who does?" Who has more claim to issue us an 'ought' than God has?

Do you have an answer to that? Or are we now simply going to say, "God being eliminated as the locus of our 'oughts,' they simply become impossible?"

I'm ready to hear whatever you want to answer on that. It's not rhetorical.
If you imply the existence of a “right,” then what is a right?
A "right" is an unalienable, intrinsic property of 'oughtness' with which one has been endowed by God...just as the Declaration of Independence rightly states.
Would a “right” be assigned an objective value without reference to the character and wishes of God?
No. For absent God, there is no rationale the justifies assigning anyone a "right" to anything. Absent God, "rights" are just a human construct, and can be given or removed on a social whim.
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Harbal
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:19 pm
Astro Cat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:23 am What about God being God makes it that we ought to value the same things as God?
Many things. For one, He's our Creator, which means that the only reason we actually exist in the first place is because He created us. And He did so with a specific purpose and intention in mind; a creature that fails to actualize that intended purpose is malfunctioning and missing out on its most blessed and happy kind of life, and failing to achieve the best trajectory of life.
What, exactly, I wonder, is the purpose of God's creating us. It seems he created us to be obedient towards him, and for no other reason at all. What was the point of that?
Think of somebody trying to use a cell phone as if it were a hammer. It might plausibly work...maybe even suceed at drivng in a nail or two. But it would shatter the phone, and it would never have achieved all the things it can really achieve.
Or, conversely, perhaps some of us are hammers, and quite resent God for trying to use us as cell phones.
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:19 pm
Astro Cat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:23 am What about God being God makes it that we ought to value the same things as God?
Many things. For one, He's our Creator, which means that the only reason we actually exist in the first place is because He created us. And He did so with a specific purpose and intention in mind; a creature that fails to actualize that intended purpose is malfunctioning and missing out on its most blessed and happy kind of life, and failing to achieve the best trajectory of life.
What, exactly, I wonder, is the purpose of God's creating us. It seems he created us to be obedient towards him, and for no other reason at all. What was the point of that?
Choose to reject your free will you ingrate!
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Harbal
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:39 pm
Choose to reject your free will you ingrate!
If you want me to feel grateful for free will, give me free will with no strings attached.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:41 am it's possible to believe God exists, or that God is Good, without also believing that God revealed Himself to Immanuel Can or even to Moses.
Well, Moses is going to give you more problems with that theory than I will. Because Moses said some very definite things about what God wants, morally, and does not want. And if these things are also, as I have suggested, related to the character and nature of God, and to His purposes in creating you in the first place, then you're going to have to decide whether or not you want to hear the voice of God speaking through Moses. What are you going to do, say, with "Thou shalt not commit adultery," or "Thou shalt not covet," or "Thou shalt not bear false witness?" Since you know these things, and you know that God says them, what is your personal position relative to them -- and to their Giver?

And on that decision, a very great deal may rest.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:19 pm
Astro Cat wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:23 am What about God being God makes it that we ought to value the same things as God?
Many things. For one, He's our Creator, which means that the only reason we actually exist in the first place is because He created us. And He did so with a specific purpose and intention in mind; a creature that fails to actualize that intended purpose is malfunctioning and missing out on its most blessed and happy kind of life, and failing to achieve the best trajectory of life.
What, exactly, I wonder, is the purpose of God's creating us.
The old Westminster Statement covers that very nicely, actually.

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.

Ps. 86:9; Isa. 60:21; Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Rev.
4:11
Ps. 16:5-11; 144:15; Isa. 12:2; Luke 2:10; Phil. 4:4; Rev.
21:3-4


To know God, to bring honour to Him by our lives, and to enjoy all that God is and has -- forever. Sounds pretty good, actually, doesn't it?
Or, conversely, perhaps some of us are hammers, and quite resent God for trying to use us as cell phones.
Then who made you as a "hammer"? Is there a bigger or different 'god' than God?

What's your theory of that? How could it happen?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IS and OUGHT

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:46 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:39 pm
Choose to reject your free will you ingrate!
If you want me to feel grateful for free will, give me free will with no strings attached.
There are none.

You may commit your soul to God, or to any alternative you choose. There are no "strings." We get everything we bargain for, in full measure.

Feel grateful yet? :wink:
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Harbal
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 pm
Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:30 pm
What, exactly, I wonder, is the purpose of God's creating us.
The old Westminster Statement covers that very nicely, actually.

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.

Ps. 86:9; Isa. 60:21; Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Rev.
4:11
Ps. 16:5-11; 144:15; Isa. 12:2; Luke 2:10; Phil. 4:4; Rev.
21:3-4
You know that stuff like that means absolutely nothing to me.
To know God, to bring honour to Him by our lives, and to enjoy all that God is and has -- forever. Sounds pretty good, actually, doesn't it?
No, it sounds pretty lame. It sounds like something you might say to a child, and hope that he would just accept it without any further questions.
You may commit your soul to God, or to any alternative you choose. There are no "strings." We get everything we bargain for, in full measure.
I haven't entered into any bargain, so why must I be held to the terms of a none existent bargain?

You know I don't believe in God, or souls, but I am answering from the point of veiw of someone who does believe, but can't see any sense in any of it. It just all seems so pointless.
Feel grateful yet?
No, I am just puzzled by what attracts you to this religion. I can't imagine what you think you are ultimately going to get out of it that is "glorious".
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Immanuel Can
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 pm
Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:30 pm
What, exactly, I wonder, is the purpose of God's creating us.
The old Westminster Statement covers that very nicely, actually.

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?

A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.

Ps. 86:9; Isa. 60:21; Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Rev.
4:11
Ps. 16:5-11; 144:15; Isa. 12:2; Luke 2:10; Phil. 4:4; Rev.
21:3-4
You know that stuff like that means absolutely nothing to me.
Okay. But what if it's the right answer? Should it mean something to you, then?
You may commit your soul to God, or to any alternative you choose. There are no "strings." We get everything we bargain for, in full measure.
I haven't entered into any bargain, so why must I be held to the terms of a none existent bargain?
Then I suppose you can hope for nothing. :wink:

That's glib. So I don't mean that.

We humans are not self-created. We come into this world already in debt to those who have created us. In our parents' case, we owe them our trust and love, because they are going to make it possible for us to live and survive for perhaps at least a couple of decades. They're going to invest a lot in us, at cost to themselves; and without them, we're in deep, deep trouble, and won't last long.

In God's case, we will last much shorter without Him. And He will be the reason we're alive, for a lot longer. Everything we are -- all our potentialities, joys, hopes, achievements, and even the very breath we take each moment, are gifts from Him. This universe itself owes its order and coherence to Him, and to His provision. We enter this world far more indebted to Him than to our own parents; and it's all the worse when we, as children can, imagine we owe nothing and can rebel with impunity and without consequences against those who made our very life possible...and even He who sustains it now.

It is a huge sin of ingratitude.

Now, of course, anyone who resents the life God gave him has power to repudiate it. We are not constrained from a choice to end it. And as spiteful and shallow as that would be, it would at least be consistent with our insistence that we will henceforth owe nothing to God. But those who are living the life God provided for them, benefitting from it, depending on His provisions every minute of their lives, taking all the blessings and not even returning thanks, what can one say of them?

Shakespeare wrote, "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child." (King Lear). How much sharper and more venomous it is for a person created as a child of God to give no love or honour or gratitude to his Creator. Such children inevitably come to grief...and when they do, they certainly deserve it, as we all can see.
You know I don't believe in God, or souls, but I am answering from the point of veiw of someone who does believe, but can't see any sense in any of it. It just all seems so pointless.
That's fine. You can take any point of view that seems interesting to you to take. I'll keep responding from my own, if I may.

But I should understand first what gives you (or your chosen point-of-view, in this case) the sense of pointlessness, if I can ask that.
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Harbal
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Re: IS and OUGHT

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:11 pm Okay. But what if it's the right answer? Should it mean something to you, then?
Well the right answer to any question should mean something to the one who asked it, I suppose. But there could be any number of different answers to the question, and you are just someone I happen to know on a forum. I know lots of people on a few forums, and I know people outside of forums, so why should I think that you have the "right" answer any more than any of them?
In God's case, we will last much shorter without Him. And He will be the reason we're alive, for a lot longer. Everything we are -- all our potentialities, joys, hopes, achievements, and even the very breath we take each moment, are gifts from Him. This universe itself owes its order and coherence to Him, and to His provision. We enter this world far more indebted to Him than to our own parents; and it's all the worse when we, as children can, imagine we owe nothing and can rebel with impunity and without consequences against those who made our very life possible...and even He who sustains it now.
What about all the people who's lives are miserable? There are millions of people living in appalling conditions in various parts of the world; what have they got to be grateful for? I, myself, don't have a miserable life, but still I don't feel particulary glad that I came into existence. There have been times in my life when the state of eternal none existence would have seemed like the ideal. Perhaps had I lived my entire life in a state of happiness, and I did believe in God, I would be grateful, but neither of those things are the case.
Shakespeare wrote, "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child." (King Lear). How much sharper and more venomous it is for a person created as a child of God to give no love or honour or gratitude to his Creator. Such children inevitably come to grief...and when they do, they certainly deserve it, as we all can see.
I don't think my kids are ungrateful. Neither of them hesitates to get in touch when they have a job thet needs doing, or if they need help with something. I daresay they appreciate my being here to help them, but I doubt that they give much thought to me between times. That's fine with me, it's how it should be. What sort of a parent would I be if I expected them to be constantly expressing their gratitude? If I insisted they come round every Sunday to tell me how wonderful I was, otherwise I would find a way to make them suffer for it in the end.

I don't know what the world was like when men first imagined God into existence, but a world that could cause such a warping of the imagination could not have been a nice place to live in.
But I should understand first what gives you (or your chosen point-of-view, in this case) the sense of pointlessness, if I can ask that.
I must admit that, just lately, I don't see much point in anything. I'm going through a can't-be-bothered patch; it happens from time to time. I will, eventually, become interesting in something, and pursue it for a while, and for as long as it lasts there will seem to be some point in it. I think the concept of their being a point to things is a purely human one. It's another one of those subjective things that seem objective.
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Re: IS and OUGHT

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:17 pm I must admit that, just lately, I don't see much point in anything. I'm going through a can't-be-bothered patch; it happens from time to time. I will, eventually, become interesting in something, and pursue it for a while, and for as long as it lasts there will seem to be some point in it.
In other words, you've been down that road before, and you know where it ends.

Based on that, for you:

The known = acquiring, or pursuing something new.
The unknown = subtracting thoughts.

Meditation is a process of subtracting every thought. Because thought is required to describe anything, existence without thought is indescribable, although as a cause the effects can be described.
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