IS and OUGHT

[promethean75]

"Why is rape wrong?"

list the hypothetical imperatives which the commission of rape would prevent you from achieving, and you will have your answer, quirk.

Here's one.

Being sexually violated sucks. Therefore rape is wrong because it prevents x from not being sexually violated.

Now, it doesn't have to be that x doesn't get sexually violated. And even if 'god' exists, that would still be true. The rapist would just fry in hell as a consequence. The point here is that there is nothing to base a prescriptive 'ought' on other than just another hypothetical imperative, e.g., the rapist wants to stay out of hell and so committing rape would be the 'wrong' thing to do, etc.

See but that's enough to establish a provisional morality. It duddint matter if a moral value is 'objective' or not long as you got enough people to intersubjectively agree on a hypothetical imperative. That's the origin of law and order, and why rape is illegal across the world. More people than not don't want to be raped and don't want to rape others. And those that do just pay escorts to have bondage sessions at the Hilton.

Yo real shit I used to drive for a couple female escorts when I wuz twenty one. Amber had this one dude who would meet her every week at the hotel and liked that bondage crap. I seen em a few times up there at the door. Overweight middle aged business man in white boxers and a dress shirt. Lol you think I'm just saying that because that's how they are in the movies.

[Immanuel Can]

Being open and honest is the best way I have come up with to deal with it. Being open about myself to others helps, but being as honest as I can with myself is the most important thing. I think that being honest with yourself, and being honest with God, pretty much amount to the same thing.

You should ask Him about that.

What is the use of guilt, Immanuel? Guilt is not remorse . If you believe you are guilty it's hard to feel proper remorse.

That is true.

Guilt is not remorse, is not reparations, is not atonement, is not reconcilliation, and is not forgiveness...and certainly not freedom. It's just guilt. But it's no fun to live with, and the feeling of guilt often indicates that something more basic is wrong. And sometimes, a person can live with guilt only so long, until it really becomes something that poisons everything.

Even remorse doesn't change anything. Since most occasions causing guilt have already taken place in the past and cannot be relived, there's a limit to what freedom from guilt a human being can grant himself. What's done is done, and nothing in his stock of options can make it not have been done.

But if there's a solution, then God can show you what it is. And if you find He doesn't, how are you worse off than you feel now?

So what have you got to lose? Why not open the conversation?

[Harbal]

But if there's a solution, then God can show you what it is. And if you find He doesn't, how are you worse off than you feel now?

So what have you got to lose? Why not open the conversation?

To be honest, IC, I would much prefer to discuss my troubles with an empathetic, living, breathing human being.

[henry quirk]

list the hypothetical imperatives which the commission of rape would prevent you from achieving, and you will have your answer, quirk.

So: don't rape cuz, for example, you might get caught?

*

Therefore rape is wrong because it prevents x from not being sexually violated.

*

It duddint matter if a moral value is 'objective' or not long as you got enough people to intersubjectively agree on a hypothetical imperative.

So: if a community agrees women or children are chattel, that's A-OK.

*

rape is illegal across the world.

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So: anyone else have an answer?

[Immanuel Can]

But if there's a solution, then God can show you what it is. And if you find He doesn't, how are you worse off than you feel now?

So what have you got to lose? Why not open the conversation?

To be honest, IC, I would much prefer to discuss my troubles with an empathetic, living, breathing human being.

You would be better to share them with Somebody who actually has power to help you.

Human sympathy will get you precisely nothing. We all have our own guilt to deal with: so you really can't wash your feet in our dirty water.

[Harbal]

You would be better to share them with Somebody who actually has power to help you.

Human sympathy will get you precisely nothing. We all have our own guilt to deal with: so you really can't wash your feet in our dirty water.

I am an anti social person to some degree. There are no friends I have stayed in contact with, and I avoid mixing with people generally. Even so, I do still need people, but I in no way, shape or form need God. God means nothing to me, why can't you just accept that, instead of being patronising? I would by far prefer to be on friendly terms with you, but you make it very difficult.

[Immanuel Can]

You would be better to share them with Somebody who actually has power to help you.

Human sympathy will get you precisely nothing. We all have our own guilt to deal with: so you really can't wash your feet in our dirty water.

I am an anti social person to some degree. There are no friends I have stayed in contact with, and I avoid mixing with people generally. Even so, I do still need people, but I in no way, shape or form need God. God means nothing to me, why can't you just accept that, instead of being patronising? I would by far prefer to be on friendly terms with you, but you make it very difficult.

Well, I like you, too. But because I do, I'm honest with you.

However, I have said all I should say, and all I need to say, on the subject. I'm fine with that.

[Dubious]

He's an Atheist. He's told me what he believes. Or rather, what he refuses to believe.

But either way, what he believes is not going to determine whether or not he's responsible before God. We all are. And if he's an Atheist, he's without excuse for being that (see Romans 1:20).

You know, whenever I get involved with you, IC, I always end up not knowing whether to laugh or cry.

Some author may write a comedy based on Immanuel Can. Possibly already has done.

A farce would be more appropriate!

[Belinda]

You should ask Him about that.

What is the use of guilt, Immanuel? Guilt is not remorse . If you believe you are guilty it's hard to feel proper remorse.

That is true.

Guilt is not remorse, is not reparations, is not atonement, is not reconcilliation, and is not forgiveness...and certainly not freedom. It's just guilt. But it's no fun to live with, and the feeling of guilt often indicates that something more basic is wrong. And sometimes, a person can live with guilt only so long, until it really becomes something that poisons everything.

Even remorse doesn't change anything. Since most occasions causing guilt have already taken place in the past and cannot be relived, there's a limit to what freedom from guilt a human being can grant himself. What's done is done, and nothing in his stock of options can make it not have been done.

But if there's a solution, then God can show you what it is. And if you find He doesn't, how are you worse off than you feel now?

So what have you got to lose? Why not open the conversation?

There is no such thing as "just guilt" in the sense of uncaused guilt. Guilt is caused by knowing one has been disobedient to a rule. See where this leads. Some tyrant comes along and has insufficient resources to rule by terror so he invents a rule that the people will be unable to keep unless they ask him for forgiveness or grace. Thereupon the tyrant forgives on condition the sinners obey him on all forthcoming occasions.

[FlashDangerpants]

I think he killed the thread when he thought he had the opportunity to convert Harbal and got a bit creepy about it Belinda.

[Belinda]

You know, whenever I get involved with you, IC, I always end up not knowing whether to laugh or cry.

Some author may write a comedy based on Immanuel Can. Possibly already has done.

A farce would be more appropriate!

Or a tragedy. The theme is a man who wants to do good but is obsessed with his own method of how to do it.

[Belinda]

If you believe you are guilty it's hard to feel proper remorse.

To be remorseful is to know you're wrong. If you ain't feelin' guilty it's impossible to feel remorse.

You don't need to care about anybody else's well being or happiness in order to feel guilt.

You feel remorse because you care about about another's happiness or wellbeing.

You can be unkind and feel guilty, but you can't be unkind and feel remorse. You need to be kind before you can feel remorse.

[Dubious]

Some author may write a comedy based on Immanuel Can. Possibly already has done.

A farce would be more appropriate!

Or a tragedy. The theme is a man who wants to do good but is obsessed with his own method of how to do it.

You're way too kind-hearted. Tragedy expresses nobility in one way or another. There is none of that in the likes of IC. With his gross fundamentalist views which depend on lies, distortions and a near perfect expression of hypocrisy to safeguard his uncompromising beliefs, I have no doubt at all he would be burning witches and especially heretics if he lived during the Middle Ages. He's one of those atavistic personalities no-longer required and that no amount of knowledge or logic can cure. He'll simply deny without cause or reason what doesn't conform to scripture which itself doesn't make sense or, as often, ignore questions he's hard-put to give answers to. These are all things he's been accused of for years so it's not just my evil imagination.

[FlashDangerpants]

A farce would be more appropriate!

Or a tragedy. The theme is a man who wants to do good but is obsessed with his own method of how to do it.

You're way too kind-hearted. Tragedy expresses nobility in one way or another. There is none of that in the likes of IC. With his gross fundamentalist views which depend on lies, distortions and a near perfect expression of hypocrisy to safeguard his uncompromising beliefs, I have no doubt at all he would be burning witches and especially heretics if he lived during the Middle Ages. He's one of those atavistic personalities no-longer required and that no amount of knowledge or logic can cure. He'll simply deny without cause or reason what doesn't conform to scripture which itself doesn't make sense or, as often, ignore questions he's hard-put to give answers to. These are all things he's been accused of for years so it's not just my evil imagination.

I think we can manage a tragic tale for old IC.

Once there was a young man with a bright future ahead of him and a sparkle, and all that sort of shit. But there was a sadness too, a deep despair, because something about that young man wasn't right, something about him was against his religion. So he got packed off to a summer camp for compulsive masturbators and homosexuals where he was to pray away the stain.

After six weeks of terrifying conversion therapy, the young man was indeed renewed in the eyes of the lord... but he left something of himself in that camp when he departed. It was his shame to be truthful, but an important part of his identity nonetheless. And now there was a terrible hole in his soul. So he filled it with more religion, the very thing that had recently brought him such torture was now his only source of solace. He learned to love the safety to be found between the iron thighs of the dictatorship of God.

So now he would like very much for you to join him in this paradise of self denial, where you too can tear yourself apart and then draw the tattered remnants together for prayer before a light supper of haggard inner sadness. All you have to do is quit wanking like he did.

[Dubious]

Sounds like a horror story in the form of a morality play!