Perception is Absolute

For all things philosophical.

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bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

Fja1 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:29 am Funny you're not countering the claim that 'love' is life-negating.
All the value of life is given by death.

Without death we would be irretrievably lost.
Death lifts everything from insignificance.

Even if then, I'm pretty sure, no one dies.
For the simple reason that no one lives.
promethean75
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by promethean75 »

Annette Campbell
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Annette Campbell »

I have a similar view as well. In my opinion, Perception is underrated. Perception is of great epistemological importance. Originally we perceive the knowledge about the world using our five senses: sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell later it may be acquired through testimony. I think we don't talk about perception enough(or maybe it is just that I rarely came across anything related to perception). Although it is not reality it can become a person's reality. Perception acts as a lens through which we view reality. Perception creates our experience of the world around us and allows us to act within our environment. Perception is very important in understanding human behavior because every person perceives the environment around him differently and approaches life problems differently. Perception is the sensory experience of the world.
Fja1
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

bobmax wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:55 am
Fja1 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:29 am Funny you're not countering the claim that 'love' is life-negating.
All the value of life is given by death.

Without death we would be irretrievably lost.
Death lifts everything from insignificance.

Even if then, I'm pretty sure, no one dies.
For the simple reason that no one lives.
What about intersubjectivity? How are we to gain consciousness of the other, other than as a mere object, if love undoes consciousness?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:07 pm Perception is absolute as perception occurs through perception and is conditioned on nothing but itself, perception is universal, even the reaction of atoms to other atoms is the atom as perceiving other atoms because of its reaction.
In terms of philosophy, 'absolute' is totally unconditional upon anything i.e. existing by itself.

How can perception emerge without a brain and what-is-perceived?
Perception is conditioned by the person, brain and what-is-perceived.
As such it cannot be absolute.

In any case that 'perception is absolute' has no practical philosophical value at all.

When a theist claim 'god is absolute' it meant God is untainted by anything thus it pure to be believed for one's salvation to avoid the inherent fear of death and hellfire. This is irrational and for that purpose only, but there are rational alternatives to resolve the fundamental psychological problem that drives irrational theism.

On the other hand to accept all perception are conditioned by the person, brain and what-is-perceived [no absolute] is highly useful because we can then develop models and strategies to improve perception where there are its related issues.
The brain, and all connected to it, is perception considering its composition, that of atoms, is a series of actions and reactions resulting from mirroring. Mirroring is perception.

So perception is not conditioned on the brain, it is conditioned on itself.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

Fja1 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:42 pm What about intersubjectivity? How are we to gain consciousness of the other, other than as a mere object, if love undoes consciousness?
In my opinion we need to try to understand what love is.

And it's not easy at all.

Because love is not something that can be observed.
It can be experienced, but never completely.
Because the more you live it, the more it cancels you out.

And how it is not possible to want to want, because either I want or I don't want, it's not up to me, in the same way I cannot want to love, but I love or don't love it is not up to me.

The awareness of the other has a fundamental error in it.
Love corrects this mistake.

The mistake consists in believing that the split is true.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:03 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:07 pm Perception is absolute as perception occurs through perception and is conditioned on nothing but itself, perception is universal, even the reaction of atoms to other atoms is the atom as perceiving other atoms because of its reaction.
In terms of philosophy, 'absolute' is totally unconditional upon anything i.e. existing by itself.

How can perception emerge without a brain and what-is-perceived?
Perception is conditioned by the person, brain and what-is-perceived.
As such it cannot be absolute.

In any case that 'perception is absolute' has no practical philosophical value at all.

When a theist claim 'god is absolute' it meant God is untainted by anything thus it pure to be believed for one's salvation to avoid the inherent fear of death and hellfire. This is irrational and for that purpose only, but there are rational alternatives to resolve the fundamental psychological problem that drives irrational theism.

On the other hand to accept all perception are conditioned by the person, brain and what-is-perceived [no absolute] is highly useful because we can then develop models and strategies to improve perception where there are its related issues.
The brain, and all connected to it, is perception considering its composition, that of atoms, is a series of actions and reactions resulting from mirroring. Mirroring is perception.

So perception is not conditioned on the brain, it is conditioned on itself.
What 'perception' are you talking about?

Note this typical definition of "what is perception" which is conditioned upon the brain and the person within reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception
Perception (from Latin perceptio 'gathering, receiving') is the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the presented information or environment.[2]
All perception involves signals that go through the nervous system, which in turn result from physical or chemical stimulation of the sensory system.[3]
Vision involves light striking the retina of the eye; smell is mediated by odor molecules; and hearing involves pressure waves.

Perception is not only the passive receipt of these signals, but it is also shaped by the recipient's learning, memory, expectation, and attention.[4][5]
Sensory input is a process that transforms this low-level information to higher-level information (e.g., extracts shapes for object recognition).[5] The process that follows connects a person's concepts and expectations (or knowledge), restorative and selective mechanisms (such as attention) that influence perception.

Perception depends on complex functions of the nervous system, but subjectively seems mostly effortless because this processing happens outside conscious awareness.[3] Since the rise of experimental psychology in the 19th century, psychology's understanding of perception has progressed by combining a variety of techniques.[4] Psychophysics quantitatively describes the relationships between the physical qualities of the sensory input and perception.[6] Sensory neuroscience studies the neural mechanisms underlying perception.
fmillo
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by fmillo »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:07 pm Perception is absolute as perception occurs through perception and is conditioned on nothing but itself, perception is universal, even the reaction of atoms to other atoms is the atom as perceiving other atoms because of its reaction.
You do not clarify here what is perception.

You are doing a tautology with key words perception, absolute and reaction.
Fja1
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:42 pm
Fja1 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:56 pm @bobmax

I don't know what's really new here. Schopenhauer made similar claims. Niezsche saw them as life-negating, as a reluctance towards confrontation with life and the world.
I don't think there can ever be anything really new.
If anything, it is always a rediscovery.
In exhibiting ancient ideas, we should at least put some effort into setting them up against a new background, not just parroting something that was stated 200 years ago.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

Fja1 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:54 pm
bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:42 pm
Fja1 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:56 pm @bobmax

I don't know what's really new here. Schopenhauer made similar claims. Niezsche saw them as life-negating, as a reluctance towards confrontation with life and the world.
I don't think there can ever be anything really new.
If anything, it is always a rediscovery.
In exhibiting ancient ideas, we should at least put some effort into setting them up against a new background, not just parroting something that was stated 200 years ago.
In reality, the rediscovery is not so much about ancient ideas.
Because those ideas are useful, if anything, to awaken a knowledge that is already in us.

Would we like to believe that the Truth can be there and not here?
That it may once have not been there and then someone made it be?

Even just to communicate between us it is necessary that the Truth is already everywhere.
Communication is but an awakening of awareness.

There is never anything really new.
But at the same time what emerges in me is always unique. Because in everyone the awakening is personal.

And if you have faith in the Truth, you are never repeating anything parrot, but you are choosing among all the ideas, that are proposed inside and outside of you, those with which to build your philosophy.

The philosophy is always new and always the same.
Fja1
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

bobmax wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:28 am
Fja1 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:54 pm
bobmax wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:42 pm

I don't think there can ever be anything really new.
If anything, it is always a rediscovery.
In exhibiting ancient ideas, we should at least put some effort into setting them up against a new background, not just parroting something that was stated 200 years ago.
In reality, the rediscovery is not so much about ancient ideas.
Because those ideas are useful, if anything, to awaken a knowledge that is already in us.

Would we like to believe that the Truth can be there and not here?
That it may once have not been there and then someone made it be?

Even just to communicate between us it is necessary that the Truth is already everywhere.
Communication is but an awakening of awareness.

There is never anything really new.
But at the same time what emerges in me is always unique. Because in everyone the awakening is personal.

And if you have faith in the Truth, you are never repeating anything parrot, but you are choosing among all the ideas, that are proposed inside and outside of you, those with which to build your philosophy.

The philosophy is always new and always the same.
I'm sure we could argue for weeks whether old = new, in what sounds like the fictional, impoverished language in Orwell's '1984', but that's beside the point; all I hoped is that you add some nuance to the familiar-sounding questions around love, death, etc.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

Fja1 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:26 pm all I hoped is that you add some nuance to the familiar-sounding questions around love, death, etc.
By now there are more of my lifelong companions who have died than those who are still alive.
But these dead of mine are more alive than the living.

And the amazement grows in me at their not being there anymore.
How is it possible?

An amazement that my rational mind disdains considering it a vain sentimentality.
Because death is a fact, life works like this!
Yet with these dead I speak to us...

Is it really a vain feeling of someone who does not know how to give himself peace, despite the stark reality?
Yet it is my love for these dead that makes it impossible for them to die.

For love their death cannot be.

And I am convinced that mine is true love.
Because there is no profit.
I don't want them to still be with me, I let them go. I let them go to me, I accepted the fact that they are no longer there, nor will they be able to be here with me anymore.

But my love knows that their essence continues to be anyway.
They are!

In fact in my eyes they are now perfect, there is no defect in them.

And this evaluation of mine is not a mere illusory sentiment!
As my rational mind would have me believe.
But it is the certainty of love.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

Annette Campbell wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:48 pm I have a similar view as well. In my opinion, Perception is underrated. Perception is of great epistemological importance. Originally we perceive the knowledge about the world using our five senses: sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell later it may be acquired through testimony. I think we don't talk about perception enough(or maybe it is just that I rarely came across anything related to perception). Although it is not reality it can become a person's reality. Perception acts as a lens through which we view reality. Perception creates our experience of the world around us and allows us to act within our environment. Perception is very important in understanding human behavior because every person perceives the environment around him differently and approaches life problems differently. Perception is the sensory experience of the world.
Annette,

Perception is reaction, as Spinoza pointed out the body is the idea of the mind, I would add objects are the body's idea, for it is the changes that ultimate reality creates in the body which constitute the object. The one way to change apparent reality is the change the experiencing body. This is true of the healthy body and the ill or injured body as well as across species. So apparent reality depends upon the nature and the state of the body of all organisms. Science tells us that ultimate reality is a place of no things thus, where do these things/objects come from if not through reaction to unknown stimulus. Even disease and evolution are dependent upon biological reactions, disease if not due to old age or injury are a reaction to an invasive organism or chemical substence even deficiencies of bodily needs cause biological disease due to undermining the constitution of the body thus its perception of apparent reality. If one thinks about it there would be no evolutionary development if it were not for reactionary organisms, and in general there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. I invite anyone to give me an example of human action which would not more properly be termed reaction. Even the physical world reacts to the totality of its parts and with this it's ever so slowly changing it affects biological life to react in kind as change.
Fja1
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:57 pmI invite anyone to give me an example of human action which would not more properly be termed reaction. Even the physical world reacts to the totality of its parts and with this it's ever so slowly changing it affects biological life to react in kind as change.
Surely action is constructible in the logic of language. In a statement such as "I drink water", the reactive implications fall outside of the topic. It simply invokes a dichotomy of action/inaction.

Assuming there's a dichotomy at work (thus perhaps conforming to the second of Descartes' Four Rules for the Direction of the Mind), the most obvious dichotomy would philosophically speaking appear to be action/being. Action is obverse of being, not reaction.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

[quote=Fjai
Surely action is constructible in the logic of language. In a statement such as "I drink water", the reactive implications fall outside of the topic. It simply invokes a dichotomy of action/inaction.

Assuming there's a dichotomy at work (thus perhaps conforming to the second of Descartes' Four Rules for the Direction of the Mind), the most obvious dichotomy would philosophically speaking appear to be action/being. Action is obverse of being, not reaction.
[/quote]

Fjai,
yours is the most interesting response I've ever received on this. "Surely action is constructible in the logic of language." Well, it is not constructive if there is no will to do so, which would necessarily be a reaction to something. In the statement, "As I drink water, there is no cause or effect/reacion it does not address motivation on any level. "Action is the obverse of being." No, all creatures are reactionary creatures, it is the source of evolutionary development and the source of disease. Reaction is also the source of your apparent reality/ your everyday reality, for the world as object is a biological reaction to an unknown stimulus, it is a biological readout of how that stimulus/energy changes the state of your body, or as Einstein said,"Reality is an illusion, a persistent one." Apparent reality is reaction and is biologically dependent. Reaction is the name of the game with the physical world always the cause to reactive organisms. My premise is this, there is no such thing as human action there is human reaction like all other creatures the human is a reactionary creature.
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