Perception is Absolute

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bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:53 pm Reaction is also the source of your apparent reality/ your everyday reality, for the world as object is a biological reaction to an unknown stimulus, it is a biological readout of how that stimulus/energy changes the state of your body, or as Einstein said,"Reality is an illusion, a persistent one." Apparent reality is reaction and is biologically dependent. Reaction is the name of the game with the physical world always the cause to reactive organisms. My premise is this, there is no such thing as human action there is human reaction like all other creatures the human is a reactionary creature.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

But if this is always true, and it seems that it is, then the action and the reaction are one and the same event.

There is no action followed by a reaction, but action and reaction occur simultaneously.
Because they are the same event.

So I don't really react to an action.

But I only appear, I exist, precisely because of the action / reaction event that makes me exist.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

[quote=bobmax

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

But if this is always true, and it seems that it is, then the action and the reaction are one and the same event.
There is no action followed by a reaction, but action and reaction occur simultaneously.
Because they are the same event. So I don't really react to an action.
But I only appear, I exist, precisely because of the action / reaction event that makes me exist.
[/quote]

The physical world as energy causes altering of one's physical being/body and full body consciousness reads out apparent reality, not unlike the sums one puts into a calculator to get a total sum. One and the same event, no, energy/ultimate reality is cause to all reactive creatures. A creature can have a choice of reactions but cannot not react to its environment. The same principles that create objects from biological reactions also create your body as it too is in the world as a manifestation/an object. Think of it this way, in philosophy it is said that subject and object stand or fall together meaning inseparable. We only know the world on a cognitive level on this level the meanings we decern in world/energy constitute our apparent reality. The problems of today's environment is not that we are acting badly but that we are reacting badly trying to forever define ourselves as a cause in the world, a lack of respect for the true situation. We are a life form turned against its environment in a suicidal posture. To your last comment, yes you cease to be when you can no longer react thus the body perishes, but the consciousness of the species lives on. It is just a matter of whether you identify/focus on consciousness or the body.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:18 am A creature can have a choice of reactions but cannot not react to its environment.
The situation is far more radical than how you describe it.
Where would this choice between possible reactions come from?

Where would this origin of my free will be?

Isn't it evident that my reactions are all inevitable?

This does not at all mean that we then live in a totally deterministic world!
It just means that as individuals we are not at all.

Energy creates everything from nothing, instant by instant.

So I think I exist as a separate entity from everything else, but what usually I believe I am is really just an illusion.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

bobmax wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:09 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:18 am A creature can have a choice of reactions but cannot not react to its environment.
The situation is far more radical than how you describe it.
Where would this choice between possible reactions come from?
Where would this origin of my free will be?
Isn't it evident that my reactions are all inevitable?
This does not at all mean that we then live in a totally deterministic world!
It just means that as individuals we are not at all.
Energy creates everything from nothing, instant by instant.
So I think I exist as a separate entity from everything else, but what usually I believe I am is really just an illusion.
[/quote]

You have a point I don't believe in free will myself but, it still stands that one cannot NOT react to one's environment for it is the environment itself which is the cause of the reactions of reactive creatures. You've obviously done some thinking here and with Quantum mechanics it all seems a dream.
Fja1
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:53 pmFjai,
yours is the most interesting response I've ever received on this. "Surely action is constructible in the logic of language." Well, it is not constructive if there is no will to do so, which would necessarily be a reaction to something. In the statement, "As I drink water, there is no cause or effect/reacion it does not address motivation on any level. "Action is the obverse of being." No, all creatures are reactionary creatures, it is the source of evolutionary development and the source of disease. Reaction is also the source of your apparent reality/ your everyday reality, for the world as object is a biological reaction to an unknown stimulus, it is a biological readout of how that stimulus/energy changes the state of your body, or as Einstein said,"Reality is an illusion, a persistent one." Apparent reality is reaction and is biologically dependent. Reaction is the name of the game with the physical world always the cause to reactive organisms. My premise is this, there is no such thing as human action there is human reaction like all other creatures the human is a reactionary creature.
By obverse, I don't mean opposite, but more like 'another side of the same coin'.

Saying there is no human actions strikes me as equivalent to saying there is no "after" (action), only "from" (reaction), or no difference between "after" and "from".
Last edited by Fja1 on Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

Fja1,

Action refers to cause, humanity cannot move without, without being moved from within first thus, reaction. The physical world is a constant and a cause to all reactionary creatures. I have posed this question before without anyone giving me an adequate challenge. If anyone feels they have a good example of an unmotivated response to the outer world I would be most pleased to consider it, thus far there have been none. A suggestion, can someone give me an example of a disease other than something caused by old age or injury that is not reaction. All disease is either a reaction to a foreign organism or chemical substance. Another example, if organisms were not reactionary creatures evolution by natural selection would never work. Focus if you will upon the world as cause.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 pm Action refers to cause, humanity cannot move without, without being moved from within first thus, reaction. The physical world is a constant and a cause to all reactionary creatures. I have posed this question before without anyone giving me an adequate challenge. If anyone feels they have a good example of an unmotivated response to the outer world I would be most pleased to consider it, thus far there have been none. A suggestion, can someone give me an example of a disease other than something caused by old age or injury that is not reaction. All disease is either a reaction to a foreign organism or chemical substance. Another example, if organisms were not reactionary creatures evolution by natural selection would never work. Focus if you will upon the world as cause.
The challenge appears when these considerations of yours question yourself.

Who am I then?

From the objective point of view you are annihilated.
Because the more clearly you see, the more you lose your individuality.

Yet clarity also arouses compassion.
For this painful world and maybe you can eventually come to feel compassion for yourself as well.

Are you right there behind that compassion?
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

bobmax wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:47 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 pm Action refers to cause, humanity cannot move without, without being moved from within first thus, reaction. The physical world is a constant and a cause to all reactionary creatures. I have posed this question before without anyone giving me an adequate challenge. If anyone feels they have a good example of an unmotivated response to the outer world I would be most pleased to consider it, thus far there have been none. A suggestion, can someone give me an example of a disease other than something caused by old age or injury that is not reaction. All disease is either a reaction to a foreign organism or chemical substance. Another example, if organisms were not reactionary creatures evolution by natural selection would never work. Focus if you will upon the world as cause.
The challenge appears when these considerations of yours question yourself.

Who am I then?

From the objective point of view you are annihilated.
Because the more clearly you see, the more you lose your individuality.

Yet clarity also arouses compassion.
For this painful world and maybe you can eventually come to feel compassion for yourself as well.

Are you right there behind that compassion?

Bobmax

I have read this a number of times and I am baffled as to what your talking about. The proposition is this, there is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction. One needs to be motivated before one responds, that response is a reaction to what motivated the individual. If you can please clarify what your response means, it seems to have nothing to do with my post.
bobmax
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by bobmax »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:21 pm
bobmax wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:47 pm The challenge appears when these considerations of yours question yourself.

Who am I then?

From the objective point of view you are annihilated.
Because the more clearly you see, the more you lose your individuality.

Yet clarity also arouses compassion.
For this painful world and maybe you can eventually come to feel compassion for yourself as well.

Are you right there behind that compassion?
Bobmax

I have read this a number of times and I am baffled as to what your talking about. The proposition is this, there is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction. One needs to be motivated before one responds, that response is a reaction to what motivated the individual. If you can please clarify what your response means, it seems to have nothing to do with my post.
As long as you look at the world through separation, distinguishing one thing from another, then reality has its rational explanation.
Things interact with each other and that's how the world works.

And when something is still not understood how it works, then you will divide it even more, distinguishing more accurately, so that the things that arise from the new separation explain, with their action and reaction, how it really works.

The world is there, reassuring with its functional concreteness.

But if you start asking yourself the meaning of all this, you will begin to doubt it.

The world is increasingly clear in its functioning, which however has no value.
Evil and good do not exist, the world is an empty mechanism.

You have come to the evident truth, the nihilistic nothingness of values.

But this "truth" has feet of clay.
That is, it assumes that there is something there anyway. Something that has no value, but something nonetheless.
While this is not the case.
Because the Nothing shines through everywhere.

Other than nothing of value!
There is no thing that has no value, because the Nothing is total!

You can arrive at this observation considering that you too, who judge the non-value, are nothing more than a mere succession of action and reaction.

Even nihilism turned out to be an alibi, in order not to stare at the Medusa.

It is the Nothingness that becomes presence.

Is the truth then the absolute Nothingness?

Only you can answer.

To be or not to be?

But can you still really not be?
Walker
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Walker »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 pm A suggestion, can someone give me an example of a disease other than something caused by old age or injury that is not reaction. All disease is either a reaction to a foreign organism or chemical substance. Another example, if organisms were not reactionary creatures evolution by natural selection would never work. Focus if you will upon the world as cause.
How about Chronic Inflammation?
Chronic inflammation: Your body continues sending inflammatory cells even when there is no outside danger. For example, in rheumatoid arthritis inflammatory cells and substances attack joint tissues leading to an inflammation that comes and goes and can cause severe damage to joints with pain and deformities.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/s ... flammation
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

bobmax wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:50 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:21 pm
bobmax wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:47 pm The challenge appears when these considerations of yours question yourself.

Who am I then?

From the objective point of view you are annihilated.
Because the more clearly you see, the more you lose your individuality.

Yet clarity also arouses compassion.
For this painful world and maybe you can eventually come to feel compassion for yourself as well.

Are you right there behind that compassion?
Bobmax

I have read this a number of times and I am baffled as to what your talking about. The proposition is this, there is no such thing as human action there is but human reaction. One needs to be motivated before one responds, that response is a reaction to what motivated the individual. If you can please clarify what your response means, it seems to have nothing to do with my post.
As long as you look at the world through separation, distinguishing one thing from another, then reality has its rational explanation.
Things interact with each other and that's how the world works.

And when something is still not understood how it works, then you will divide it even more, distinguishing more accurately, so that the things that arise from the new separation explain, with their action and reaction, how it really works.

The world is there, reassuring with its functional concreteness.

But if you start asking yourself the meaning of all this, you will begin to doubt it.

The world is increasingly clear in its functioning, which however has no value.
Evil and good do not exist, the world is an empty mechanism.

You have come to the evident truth, the nihilistic nothingness of values.

But this "truth" has feet of clay.
That is, it assumes that there is something there anyway. Something that has no value, but something nonetheless.
While this is not the case.
Because the Nothing shines through everywhere.

Other than nothing of value!
There is no thing that has no value, because the Nothing is total!

You can arrive at this observation considering that you too, who judge the non-value, are nothing more than a mere succession of action and reaction.

Even nihilism turned out to be an alibi, in order not to stare at the Medusa.

It is the Nothingness that becomes presence.

Is the truth then the absolute Nothingness?

Only you can answer.

To be or not to be?

But can you still really not be?
bobmax,

Excellent!! I cannot say I agree on every point but overall EXCELLENT!!! I'll take a little time to digest this and get back to you.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

Fja1 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:16 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:57 pmI invite anyone to give me an example of human action which would not more properly be termed reaction. Even the physical world reacts to the totality of its parts and with this it's ever so slowly changing it affects biological life to react in kind as change.
Surely action is constructible in the logic of language. In a statement such as "I drink water", the reactive implications fall outside of the topic. It simply invokes a dichotomy of action/inaction.

Assuming there's a dichotomy at work (thus perhaps conforming to the second of Descartes' Four Rules for the Direction of the Mind), the most obvious dichotomy would philosophically speaking appear to be action/being. Action is obverse of being, not reaction.

Fja1,

I know very well that action is considered a cause but I believe this action/cause is limited to the world as object to which all reactionary creatures out of their nature must respond. Language is an abstract and as such once removed but then nothing is infallible, but we should in our discerning try to keep our finger on the pulse of what is life functioning. I ask for an example of human volition which is clearly action and could not be considered reaction. I maintain there isn't any. I am not challenging the dichotomy I am simply saying it is limited to the relation of subject and object the subject is on the reactionary end, technically this reaction is affective as a cause to the world as an object but it is never an action on the part of the human. If you think about it evolutionary biology bears this out. Think about cause as unmotivated, is there human unmotivated action/cause-- no, its not possiable.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

Walker wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 pm A suggestion, can someone give me an example of a disease other than something caused by old age or injury that is not reaction. All disease is either a reaction to a foreign organism or chemical substance. Another example, if organisms were not reactionary creatures evolution by natural selection would never work. Focus if you will upon the world as cause.
How about Chronic Inflammation?
Chronic inflammation: Your body continues sending inflammatory cells even when there is no outside danger. For example, in rheumatoid arthritis inflammatory cells and substances attack joint tissues leading to an inflammation that comes and goes and can cause severe damage to joints with pain and deformities.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/s ... flammation
Walker,

Are you suggesting the chronic inflammation is without cause? I would say chronic inflammation is a reaction to previous damage. By definition, this is a complex biological response, just the world response indicates the fact that it is a reaction. Perhaps when it becomes chronic it is responding to previous damage. It is however highly unlikely that there is an affliction without a cause. Perhaps the initial cause damaged the response system.
Fja1
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Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm

Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by Fja1 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:26 amFja1,

I know very well that action is considered a cause but I believe this action/cause is limited to the world as object to which all reactionary creatures out of their nature must respond. Language is an abstract and as such once removed but then nothing is infallible, but we should in our discerning try to keep our finger on the pulse of what is life functioning. I ask for an example of human volition which is clearly action and could not be considered reaction. I maintain there isn't any. I am not challenging the dichotomy I am simply saying it is limited to the relation of subject and object the subject is on the reactionary end, technically this reaction is affective as a cause to the world as an object but it is never an action on the part of the human. If you think about it evolutionary biology bears this out. Think about cause as unmotivated, is there human unmotivated action/cause-- no, its not possiable.
I'm not contradicting you on the closing notes, but what caught my attention is when you used the word "functioning". ("our discerning try to keep our finger on the pulse of what is life functioning") If we wanted to think of this question in mathemathical syntax, we'd need use mathematical terms. Let's think of "reaction" as analoguously to a mathematical function. Is there a constituent of a mathematical function which would be analogous to action, and so what could it be, if not the declarations of the arguments of the function?
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Perception is Absolute

Post by popeye1945 »

Fja1 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:00 am
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:26 amFja1,

I know very well that action is considered a cause but I believe this action/cause is limited to the world as object to which all reactionary creatures out of their nature must respond. Language is an abstract and as such once removed but then nothing is infallible, but we should in our discerning try to keep our finger on the pulse of what is life functioning. I ask for an example of human volition which is clearly action and could not be considered reaction. I maintain there isn't any. I am not challenging the dichotomy I am simply saying it is limited to the relation of subject and object the subject is on the reactionary end, technically this reaction is affective as a cause to the world as an object but it is never an action on the part of the human. If you think about it evolutionary biology bears this out. Think about cause as unmotivated, is there human unmotivated action/cause-- no, its not possiable.
I'm not contradicting you on the closing notes, but what caught my attention is when you used the word "functioning". ("our discerning try to keep our finger on the pulse of what is life functioning") If we wanted to think of this question in mathemathical syntax, we'd need use mathematical terms. Let's think of "reaction" as analoguously to a mathematical function. Is there a constituent of a mathematical function which would be analogous to action, and so what could it be, if not the declarations of the arguments of the function?
Fja1,

You've got me there, I am anything but mathematical. If you come up with one that would be meaningful to the argument by all means.
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