"The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by FlashDangerpants »

What is supposed to be the consequence of any of this? Does somebody want to say they don't believe moon actually existed prior to humans seeing it?

Or is all this stupid bullshit another attempt to put made up facts about which brand of cornflakes tastes best onto the same logical footing as natural facts about observable objects in the world, and about which objectively verifiable statements can be made?
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:32 pm What is supposed to be the consequence of any of this? Does somebody want to say they don't believe moon actually existed prior to humans seeing it?

Or is all this stupid bullshit another attempt to put made up facts about which brand of cornflakes tastes best onto the same logical footing as natural facts about observable objects in the world, and about which objectively verifiable statements can be made?
But.. you can compare the curving of the lips when children eat cornflakes and smile. You just need a protractor, it's the totally scientific way of finding out which cornflakes tastes best. That's how we discover the objective facts under the cornflakes FSK.
Iwannaplato
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:45 am Veritas seems to think that Kant has shown the non-existence of things not experienced (which elevated Kant to the level of Veritas, smart guy this Kant). But of course Kant has only shown that ultimately, we can't know.
The main thing he doesn't understand in this thread is if someone says 'only things experienced exist' and I question the position, I have not claimed that things not experienced do exist. This distinctions is utterly lost on him. He seems to think that challenging position X, means that one holds the position not X. There are other possibilities. One could be trying to see if the person, in this case not him, can actually justify their position. One can be agnostic. In any case, one need not have asserted not X.
Iwannaplato
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Iwannaplato »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:32 pm What is supposed to be the consequence of any of this? Does somebody want to say they don't believe moon actually existed prior to humans seeing it?
So far, in the thread he plucked my quote out of, I was just trying to understand the position of the person who asserted that Reality is experience. So far, I can't be sure what that person meant. Someone else, making a similar mistake to VA responded to me there. Once I understand the person who asserted, REality is experience, then perhaps they have the same position VA has, perhaps not. But then I can press them to justify that position.

VA seems to assume that questioning someone on a position or even criticizing their position is 1) holding the opposite opinion 2) suddenly gaining some onus. Assumption one includes a false dilemma, amongst other things.
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:20 pm The main thing he doesn't understand in this thread is if someone says 'only things experienced exist' and I question the position, I have not claimed that things not experienced do exist. This distinctions is utterly lost on him. He seems to think that challenging position X, means that one holds the position not X. There are other possibilities. One could be trying to see if the person, in this case not him, can actually justify their position. One can be agnostic. In any case, one need not have asserted not X.
You asked a simple question which three of them (including 2 GOAT philosophers) totally misunderstood even though it was in clear English, that's common around here.

But then actually, VA went on to criticize Popeye for being too soft. Because VA thinks that it's insane to even consider things outside experience. He is a good samaritan so he uses Buddhist techniques to treat such insanity.

... the irony of which can hardly be calculated ... :)
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

All the responses above did not address nor counter my main point in the OP, i.e.
  • The pursuit and impulse for things in the absence of humans is a psychological and evolutionary psychological issue.
    As such the hypothesis "things in the absence of humans" e.g. "The Moon & dinosaurs Pre-Existed Humans" is a non-starter which is very evident since humans first proposed such a non-starter hypothesis.

    As such, we should address the psychological issue rather than try to find an answer to a non-starter hypothesis. This is what Buddhism [& others of the likes] does.
    This is the same as the God exists hypothesis which is a non-starter.
    An analogy is 'a square-circle exists' which is glaringly a non-starter.
The question of whether "The Moon & dinosaurs Pre-Existed Humans" is a serious philosophical issue but by itself is harmless to humanity.

However the insistence that "The Moon & dinosaurs Pre-Existed Humans" is condoning the more serious issue of the God Hypothesis, i.e. God and its creations pre-existed Humans, thus God exists as real.
Since God exists as real, God commandments to kill non-believers [that 'Religion of Peace'] is right and ought to be done if believers are to reap the rewards as promise.

41410 Fatal Incident by Believers of the Religion of Peace since 911.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Those who refuse to acknowledge and condemn the above are indirectly complicit to the above and future numbers of such fatal [death involved] incidents.
The above involved fatal [death involved] incidents, the non-fatal incident will be many times over that.

Point is most of those arguing here are merely arguing for the sake of arguing [mental masturbation] rather than giving consideration of how the issues raised has a negative impact on humanity in the past, present and will be in the future.
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

Atheists look at a dinosaur skeleton and use it as a (fairly crushing) argument against the Biblical God.
Veritas looks at a dinosaur skeleton and would love to make it disappear, because he thinks it will turn people into God-fearing lunatics. :lol:

How does he come up with these things :)

By the way, discarding the natural external world, and only focusing on what appears in the mind, is a pretty common way of becoming a psychotic God-fearing lunatic. We discard the external control that could help us tell what is real and what is imagined. Muslims especially like to imagine things in their minds and believe it. VA is trying to create more hallucinating muslims.
Iwannaplato
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:20 am All the responses above did not address nor counter my main point in the OP,
The reason I haven't addressed the argument in the OP is because 1) you misrepresented me and my position. And you lack the integrity to admit that. I never claimed the moon pre-existed humans. 2) You misrepresented me by not placing my post in context. I was questioning his position, which is not the one you are addressing. 3) you don't understand who had the onus in the thread you plucked my quote from.

So, your OP, while it might be a fine discussion starter, was rude and fallacious in relation to me. I am not sure you can understand that, but more importantly, I don't think you care to.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 am Atheists look at a dinosaur skeleton and use it as a (fairly crushing) argument against the Biblical God.
Veritas looks at a dinosaur skeleton and would love to make it disappear, because he thinks it will turn people into God-fearing lunatics. :lol:

How does he come up with these things :)

By the way, discarding the natural external world, and only focusing on what appears in the mind, is a pretty common way of becoming a psychotic God-fearing lunatic. We discard the external control that could help us tell what is real and what is imagined. Muslims especially like to imagine things in their minds and believe it. VA is trying to create more hallucinating muslims.
Strawman again.

That dinosaurs existed is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK and not as an absolute claim by itself.
One cannot simply make the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! without the explicit or implicit point that such a claim is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK which is constructed and sustained by humans.

To insist on the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! is a non-starter, just like,
the God exists hypothesis which is a non-starter, or
'a square-circle exists' which is glaringly a non-starter.
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:35 am
Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 am Atheists look at a dinosaur skeleton and use it as a (fairly crushing) argument against the Biblical God.
Veritas looks at a dinosaur skeleton and would love to make it disappear, because he thinks it will turn people into God-fearing lunatics. :lol:

How does he come up with these things :)

By the way, discarding the natural external world, and only focusing on what appears in the mind, is a pretty common way of becoming a psychotic God-fearing lunatic. We discard the external control that could help us tell what is real and what is imagined. Muslims especially like to imagine things in their minds and believe it. VA is trying to create more hallucinating muslims.
Strawman again.

That dinosaurs existed is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK and not as an absolute claim by itself.
One cannot simply make the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! without the explicit or implicit point that such a claim is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK which is constructed and sustained by humans.

To insist on the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! is a non-starter, just like,
the God exists hypothesis which is a non-starter, or
'a square-circle exists' which is glaringly a non-starter.
No it's not, it's "conditioned upon the there-is-an-external-world-to-human-minds FSK".
Iwannaplato
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:35 am That dinosaurs existed is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK and not as an absolute claim by itself.
What is the statement
Reality is experience
conditioned on?
What does it mean`?

Your answer may not be popeye's answer, but that's what you quoted of mine in the OP was
ASKING
about.

I was asking for justification of that assertion and
clarification of that assertion.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Sun May 15, 2022 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:46 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:35 am
Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 am Atheists look at a dinosaur skeleton and use it as a (fairly crushing) argument against the Biblical God.
Veritas looks at a dinosaur skeleton and would love to make it disappear, because he thinks it will turn people into God-fearing lunatics. :lol:

How does he come up with these things :)

By the way, discarding the natural external world, and only focusing on what appears in the mind, is a pretty common way of becoming a psychotic God-fearing lunatic. We discard the external control that could help us tell what is real and what is imagined. Muslims especially like to imagine things in their minds and believe it. VA is trying to create more hallucinating muslims.
Strawman again.

That dinosaurs existed is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK and not as an absolute claim by itself.
One cannot simply make the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! without the explicit or implicit point that such a claim is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK which is constructed and sustained by humans.

To insist on the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! is a non-starter, just like,
the God exists hypothesis which is a non-starter, or
'a square-circle exists' which is glaringly a non-starter.
No it's not, it's "conditioned upon the there-is-an-external-world-to-human-minds FSK".
That is my point, is it conditioned, thus a conditional truth not a standalone truth.
As a standalone truth, it is a non-starter.

In principle, the claim 'God exists as real' is conditioned upon 'there is a real God' FSK of the theists.
The difference is the degree of credibility of the FSKs, i.e. the palaeontologists' FSK being more credible because it is based on the scientific method and the scientific FSK.
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:53 am
Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:46 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:35 am
Strawman again.

That dinosaurs existed is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK and not as an absolute claim by itself.
One cannot simply make the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! without the explicit or implicit point that such a claim is conditioned upon the specific palaeontologists' FSK which is constructed and sustained by humans.

To insist on the claim 'dinosaurs pre-existed humans' period! is a non-starter, just like,
the God exists hypothesis which is a non-starter, or
'a square-circle exists' which is glaringly a non-starter.
No it's not, it's "conditioned upon the there-is-an-external-world-to-human-minds FSK".
That is my point, is it conditioned, thus a conditional truth not a standalone truth.
As a standalone truth, it is a non-starter.

In principle, the claim 'God exists as real' is conditioned upon 'there is a real God' FSK of the theists.
The difference is the degree of credibility of the FSKs, i.e. the palaeontologists' FSK being more credible because it is based on the scientific method and the scientific FSK.
And your reason for still talking about this, when you were told hundreds of times for years that no one here is talking about standalone truths?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:55 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:53 am
Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:46 am
No it's not, it's "conditioned upon the there-is-an-external-world-to-human-minds FSK".
That is my point, is it conditioned, thus a conditional truth not a standalone truth.
As a standalone truth, it is a non-starter.

In principle, the claim 'God exists as real' is conditioned upon 'there is a real God' FSK of the theists.
The difference is the degree of credibility of the FSKs, i.e. the palaeontologists' FSK being more credible because it is based on the scientific method and the scientific FSK.
And your reason for still talking about this, when you were told hundreds of times for years that no one here is talking about standalone truths?
You are totally ignorant!

Philosophical realists and theists [>90% of people on Earth] claim their truths are independent of beliefs and opinions. That's standalone truths. You deny that?
Atla
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Re: "The Moon Pre-Existed Humans" is a Non-Starter

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:59 am
Atla wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:55 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:53 am
That is my point, is it conditioned, thus a conditional truth not a standalone truth.
As a standalone truth, it is a non-starter.

In principle, the claim 'God exists as real' is conditioned upon 'there is a real God' FSK of the theists.
The difference is the degree of credibility of the FSKs, i.e. the palaeontologists' FSK being more credible because it is based on the scientific method and the scientific FSK.
And your reason for still talking about this, when you were told hundreds of times for years that no one here is talking about standalone truths?
You are totally ignorant!

Philosophical realists and theists [>90% of people on Earth] claim their truths are independent of beliefs and opinions. That's standalone truths. You deny that?
You're the ignorant one if you think you're talking to all the people on Earth here. Most people you talk to here aren't theists and that kind of realists.
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