Free Will and Determinism III

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Eodnhoj7
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Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
To describe determinism, you can ask:

if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times, it will evolve to this day in the exact same experience of me writing in this forum?

I think the answer is Yes. I am determinist.

If you thinkg the answer is No, then you must say why no.

And all the arguments will fail.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by FlashDangerpants »

That's so sweet, Eggnog7 made a second account so he could argue with himself.
trokanmariel
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by trokanmariel »

CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
To describe determinism, you can ask:

if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times, it will evolve to this day in the exact same experience of me writing in this forum?

I think the answer is Yes. I am determinist.

If you thinkg the answer is No, then you must say why no.

And all the arguments will fail.

The assembly presentation, as a symmetry bias, of "if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times"; it's the result of a scrutiny bias unfairly holding nihilism to account evolution activation, of reality.
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

trokanmariel wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:33 am
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
To describe determinism, you can ask:

if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times, it will evolve to this day in the exact same experience of me writing in this forum?

I think the answer is Yes. I am determinist.

If you thinkg the answer is No, then you must say why no.

And all the arguments will fail.

The assembly presentation, as a symmetry bias, of "if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times"; it's the result of a scrutiny bias unfairly holding nihilism to account evolution activation, of reality.
I cant understand this. Can you say it with other words? Thank you!
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
To describe determinism, you can ask:

if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times, it will evolve to this day in the exact same experience of me writing in this forum?

I think the answer is Yes. I am determinist.

If you thinkg the answer is No, then you must say why no.

And all the arguments will fail.
It is a free choice to indulge the mind experiment to repeat the origin of the universe "1000 times" as there is no prerequisite determine how many times it should or should not repeat; "1000" is pulled from thin air as there is nothing determining the right number. Why not say 1001 or a million?

Anyhow;

If everything is determined and the contradictory stance of both sides of the argument being presented (ie determinism vs. free will) are in fact determined then determinism results in contradiction and anything goes including the existence of free will.
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

Puedes imaginar 1000 vueltas o 1001 o 10, o 3. No hay problema alguno con eso.

El ejercicio es imaginar una repetición y sacar una conclusión de eso. Así no hay equivocaciones al intercambiar con alguien sobre lo que la otra persona cree que es el determinismo.

El determinismo es eso, que si se repiten las mismas condiciones del big bang, entonces sucede exactamente lo mismo.

Es solo para aclarar.

Si el determinismo es correcto, entonces:

Está determinado que haya humanos que hablen de libre albedrío.

Está determinado que haya humanos que CREAN que si se repite el big bang en las mismas condiciones entonces NO sucedería exactamente lo mismo cada vez. Pero sería una mentira, una ignorancia.

No veo donde está la contradicción.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:55 pm Puedes imaginar 1000 vueltas o 1001 o 10, o 3. No hay problema alguno con eso.

El ejercicio es imaginar una repetición y sacar una conclusión de eso. Así no hay equivocaciones al intercambiar con alguien sobre lo que la otra persona cree que es el determinismo.

El determinismo es eso, que si se repiten las mismas condiciones del big bang, entonces sucede exactamente lo mismo.

Es solo para aclarar.

Si el determinismo es correcto, entonces:

Está determinado que haya humanos que hablen de libre albedrío.

Está determinado que haya humanos que CREAN que si se repite el big bang en las mismas condiciones entonces NO sucedería exactamente lo mismo cada vez. Pero sería una mentira, una ignorancia.

No veo donde está la contradicción.
"You can imagine 1000 laps or 1001 or 10 or 3. There is no problem with that.

The exercise is to imagine a repetition and draw a conclusion from it. Thus there are no mistakes in exchanging with someone about what the other person believes to be determinism.

Determinism is that, if the same conditions of the big bang are repeated, then exactly the same thing happens.

It's just to clarify.

If determinism is correct, then:

It is determined that there are humans who speak of free will.

It is certain that there are humans who BELIEVE that if the big bang is repeated under the same conditions then exactly the same thing would NOT happen every time. But it would be a lie, an ignorance.

I don't see where the contradiction is."










1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Age »

CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:52 pm Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
To describe determinism, you can ask:

if we repeat the origin of the universe 1000 times, it will evolve to this day in the exact same experience of me writing in this forum?
WHY do some of 'you', human beings, persist with the most ABSURD and ILLOGICAL notion that the Universe BEGAN?
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am I think the answer is Yes. I am determinist.
WHY are you NOT YET SURE?
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am If you thinkg the answer is No, then you must say why no.
If you say, “Yes“, then you must say HOW could the Universe begin from absolutely NOTHING?
CHNOPS wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 4:43 am And all the arguments will fail.
Do you envision ANY of your arguments will NOT fail?

Also, what I WILL ACHIEVE here was ALL pre-determined correct?
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:09 am
CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:55 pm Puedes imaginar 1000 vueltas o 1001 o 10, o 3. No hay problema alguno con eso.

El ejercicio es imaginar una repetición y sacar una conclusión de eso. Así no hay equivocaciones al intercambiar con alguien sobre lo que la otra persona cree que es el determinismo.

El determinismo es eso, que si se repiten las mismas condiciones del big bang, entonces sucede exactamente lo mismo.

Es solo para aclarar.

Si el determinismo es correcto, entonces:

Está determinado que haya humanos que hablen de libre albedrío.

Está determinado que haya humanos que CREAN que si se repite el big bang en las mismas condiciones entonces NO sucedería exactamente lo mismo cada vez. Pero sería una mentira, una ignorancia.

No veo donde está la contradicción.
"You can imagine 1000 laps or 1001 or 10 or 3. There is no problem with that.

The exercise is to imagine a repetition and draw a conclusion from it. Thus there are no mistakes in exchanging with someone about what the other person believes to be determinism.

Determinism is that, if the same conditions of the big bang are repeated, then exactly the same thing happens.

It's just to clarify.

If determinism is correct, then:

It is determined that there are humans who speak of free will.

It is certain that there are humans who BELIEVE that if the big bang is repeated under the same conditions then exactly the same thing would NOT happen every time. But it would be a lie, an ignorance.

I don't see where the contradiction is."










1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.
Obviously BOTH ’free will’ AND ’determinism' EXIST. Absolutely NO one could refute this Fact.

But just because two OPPOSING things EXIST this does NOT infer there is a contradiction AT ALL here. WHY did you ASSUME otherwise?
trokanmariel
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by trokanmariel »

A free will/determinism theme:

In the contemporary reality, there is daylight (of its parameter as convenience to do with its being a slot of experience through relay) saving the ancient body glamour reality, from its stigma (the stigma identity label deriving from body glamour's gravitation to body glamour - an infiltration entity, relating to cyber punk and many other forms of art/entertainment avenues - being a centralisation theme of focal point), which is ostensibly a free will act.

Determinism: the inevitability, of sequence to block aura deriving from coherence of speech philosophy would mirror up to the determinism label.

What is sequence to block in reference to, exactly?
It might not matter, due to the singularity context of coherence of speech using daylight saving gravitation to body glamour irrespective of the latter's spontaneity at the back end infiltration/projection to external construct of cyber punk and other forms of art, meaning the inevitability of shut down of demonic interference/sequence to block aura politics.


More free will rumination:
I failed once again, to identify the uniformity plat (a daylight-uniformity plat manipulation instillation mirror), from last night's coherence of speech construct, which included the imagination of geography being a capitalism (as the actual land being capitalist, as a metamorphosis idea rather than the cliche expectation of figurative projection) juxtaposed with ideas travelling as socialist.

The dichotomy, of ideas travelling as socialist, and geography being capitalist: it's a logical assortment democracy, in the meaning of the visual look of the word idea denoting socialism, and ergo with geography.

Selection themes, in 11 New Street, such as emotion to supermarket carrying insects as rival metaphor machine to Hollywood being a metaphor machine (but news media isn't), and extracting ideas from word combinations, across different social and machine platforms (the internet, different websites and different organizational leaflets), as its democracy identity; can the actual land being capitalist-version of heaven's deceased are computers as anarcho-communism, combined with the national daylight pendulum art of outer space be a mutual awareness syndrome with the aforementioned pair?


The emotional story arc, of physics going through history as a free will user to projector (the projector being any from demons, Hollywood demons, internet demons, sleep over computer politics, the L-graph, rush back following coherence of mind vs spontaneity at the back end meta etc); does it consist of the God's sex heartattack-daylight uniformity plat, or of internet to internet's going for a walk meta, or of gothic art as an immune observer of the insect as metaphor machine, or of the digital text universe being an oxygen machine?


For Al Pacino's Burke
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:23 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:09 am
CHNOPS wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:55 pm Puedes imaginar 1000 vueltas o 1001 o 10, o 3. No hay problema alguno con eso.

El ejercicio es imaginar una repetición y sacar una conclusión de eso. Así no hay equivocaciones al intercambiar con alguien sobre lo que la otra persona cree que es el determinismo.

El determinismo es eso, que si se repiten las mismas condiciones del big bang, entonces sucede exactamente lo mismo.

Es solo para aclarar.

Si el determinismo es correcto, entonces:

Está determinado que haya humanos que hablen de libre albedrío.

Está determinado que haya humanos que CREAN que si se repite el big bang en las mismas condiciones entonces NO sucedería exactamente lo mismo cada vez. Pero sería una mentira, una ignorancia.

No veo donde está la contradicción.
"You can imagine 1000 laps or 1001 or 10 or 3. There is no problem with that.

The exercise is to imagine a repetition and draw a conclusion from it. Thus there are no mistakes in exchanging with someone about what the other person believes to be determinism.

Determinism is that, if the same conditions of the big bang are repeated, then exactly the same thing happens.

It's just to clarify.

If determinism is correct, then:

It is determined that there are humans who speak of free will.

It is certain that there are humans who BELIEVE that if the big bang is repeated under the same conditions then exactly the same thing would NOT happen every time. But it would be a lie, an ignorance.

I don't see where the contradiction is."










1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.
Obviously BOTH ’free will’ AND ’determinism' EXIST. Absolutely NO one could refute this Fact.

But just because two OPPOSING things EXIST this does NOT infer there is a contradiction AT ALL here. WHY did you ASSUME otherwise?
Because in observing both individually a distinction is made, distinction is opposition.
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:36 pm
Age wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:23 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:09 am

"You can imagine 1000 laps or 1001 or 10 or 3. There is no problem with that.

The exercise is to imagine a repetition and draw a conclusion from it. Thus there are no mistakes in exchanging with someone about what the other person believes to be determinism.

Determinism is that, if the same conditions of the big bang are repeated, then exactly the same thing happens.

It's just to clarify.

If determinism is correct, then:

It is determined that there are humans who speak of free will.

It is certain that there are humans who BELIEVE that if the big bang is repeated under the same conditions then exactly the same thing would NOT happen every time. But it would be a lie, an ignorance.

I don't see where the contradiction is."










1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.
Obviously BOTH ’free will’ AND ’determinism' EXIST. Absolutely NO one could refute this Fact.

But just because two OPPOSING things EXIST this does NOT infer there is a contradiction AT ALL here. WHY did you ASSUME otherwise?
Because in observing both individually a distinction is made, distinction is opposition.
BUT, NO CONTRADICTION.

So, AGAIN, WHY ASSUME there was some contradiction here?
CHNOPS
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:11 am

Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

1. The contradiction in arguing for determinism is in the fact that the number of repetitions necessary to prove a deterministic universe are random thus free will is necessary to prove a deterministic universe.


2. Free will is the opposite of determinism and vice versa yet not only are both dependent upon the other for contrast, thus connected, but one results in the other:

2a. It is determined that free will exists as we point to free will when we speak of it and under a deterministic universe this conversation is determined.
2b. It is freely willed that determinism exists as every choice has a resulting order which proceeds from it.

The contradiction lies in the fact both are opposites yet this contradiction is contradicted as both exist through the other.
1- I am not proving anything, we cannot prove neither Determinism or Random. I am just explaining what determinism is for me.


Tell me.... what is Freewill?

I think Freewill is just a concept that the people who say it dont understand that he is talking about Determinism or Random in the deeper.

So, can you try to explain what Freewill is and we can see if you are describing really anything?....

Because this:
Free will is a cause followed by effects. These effects are order as any action, such as free will, must have following actions if it is to exist. In these respects free will results in determinism. This determinism is a series of connected actions which result in each other and as such it is determined that there is free will as the sequence of actions results in a choice.
doesnt make sense to me.

But if you want to learn, follow me, ok?

Just answer my questions.


Do you believe in an origin of the universe? Yes or Not ?


If yes, then, that first form, that first thing, was a "choice" ?

Or the Freewill is something that happens later in the evolution of the universe?


First that.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:36 pm
Age wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:23 am

Obviously BOTH ’free will’ AND ’determinism' EXIST. Absolutely NO one could refute this Fact.

But just because two OPPOSING things EXIST this does NOT infer there is a contradiction AT ALL here. WHY did you ASSUME otherwise?
Because in observing both individually a distinction is made, distinction is opposition.
BUT, NO CONTRADICTION.

So, AGAIN, WHY ASSUME there was some contradiction here?
Distinction is separation as it is contrast, to have distinction is to have contradiction.
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