Free Will and Determinism III

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bobmax
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by bobmax »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:27 pm Conditions dependent upon further condition results in there only being conditions and as such conditions cease to have form and result in no-thing because they have no comparison. This "no-thingness" of conditions necessitates the will as dependent upon conditions in turn being free.
If I understand what you are saying, freedom is only possible if there are constraints.
If there are no conditions to be met, there can be no freedom.
The fall of all conditions also makes freedom disappear.

What remains then?

I believe that at this point the discourse can no longer concern objectivity.
Because the unconditioned ceases to be unconditioned when there is no longer any possible condition.

We find ourselves in the negation of the negation.
That is God.

I must therefore turn to myself.
When am I free?

I am free when I decide what I want because I owe it because this I am.
That is, my freedom consists in my very being: I want what I owe because this I am.

But if I depend only on myself, then I am Chaos. Which manifests itself through randomness.

On the other hand, is it not love without conditions?
A conditional love what love would it be?
It would seem that love is a manifestation of Chaos.
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:19 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:48 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:58 pm

Because distinction is necessitated by contrast.
But a 'contrast' is NOT necessarily a 'contradiction' at all, OBVIOUSLY.
A contrast points to difference, difference points to separation.
So what?
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

Eodnhoj7 , you dont want to learn, dont you?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

bobmax wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:44 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:27 pm Conditions dependent upon further condition results in there only being conditions and as such conditions cease to have form and result in no-thing because they have no comparison. This "no-thingness" of conditions necessitates the will as dependent upon conditions in turn being free.
If I understand what you are saying, freedom is only possible if there are constraints.
If there are no conditions to be met, there can be no freedom.
The fall of all conditions also makes freedom disappear.

What remains then?

I believe that at this point the discourse can no longer concern objectivity.
Because the unconditioned ceases to be unconditioned when there is no longer any possible condition.

We find ourselves in the negation of the negation.
That is God.

I must therefore turn to myself.
When am I free?

I am free when I decide what I want because I owe it because this I am.
That is, my freedom consists in my very being: I want what I owe because this I am.

But if I depend only on myself, then I am Chaos. Which manifests itself through randomness.

On the other hand, is it not love without conditions?
A conditional love what love would it be?
It would seem that love is a manifestation of Chaos.
Yep,

but it goes deeper:

Freedom and constraint are not only interconnected but viewing them from the other side of coin as contrasting phenomena still necessitates a relationship through contrast thus a deeper connection through them mutually sharing the nature of conflicting with eachother....even from the perspective of freedom/determinism contradicting each other this contradiction contradicts itself.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

CHNOPS wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:10 pm Eodnhoj7 , you dont want to learn, dont you?
Relatively speaking I can accuse you of the same thing from my perspective.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:19 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:48 am

But a 'contrast' is NOT necessarily a 'contradiction' at all, OBVIOUSLY.
A contrast points to difference, difference points to separation.
So what?
That statement is the inevitable result of continually analyzing reality, with that being said that is the answer all your questions point toward.
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:29 am
CHNOPS wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:10 pm Eodnhoj7 , you dont want to learn, dont you?
Relatively speaking I can accuse you of the same thing from my perspective.
So, you will no answer my questions? :roll:
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:30 am
Age wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:19 pm

A contrast points to difference, difference points to separation.
So what?
That statement is the inevitable result of continually analyzing reality, with that being said that is the answer all your questions point toward.
1. Which statement?

2. What does one 'analyze' 'reality' in relation TO, EXACTLY, when one is, supposedly, 'continually analyzing reality', itself?

3. What is the, supposed, answer, which ALL of my questions point towards? (By the way, there are MANY DIFFERENT answers, to my questions).

4. Do you REALLY BELIEVE that there is just ONE 'answer' that ALL of ANY one's questions point towards?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:22 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:30 am
Age wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:46 pm

So what?
That statement is the inevitable result of continually analyzing reality, with that being said that is the answer all your questions point toward.
1. Which statement?

2. What does one 'analyze' 'reality' in relation TO, EXACTLY, when one is, supposedly, 'continually analyzing reality', itself?

3. What is the, supposed, answer, which ALL of my questions point towards? (By the way, there are MANY DIFFERENT answers, to my questions).

4. Do you REALLY BELIEVE that there is just ONE 'answer' that ALL of ANY one's questions point towards?
1. "So what".

2. In relation to itself thus resulting in nothingness. Analyzing phenomena is the exhaustion of patterns.

3. "So what".

4. A simple dot, no-thingness.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

CHNOPS wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:37 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:29 am
CHNOPS wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:10 pm Eodnhoj7 , you dont want to learn, dont you?
Relatively speaking I can accuse you of the same thing from my perspective.
So, you will no answer my questions? :roll:
I just did. Are you going to answer your question turned towards you?
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

CHNOPS wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:57 pm
Conditions dependent upon further condition results in there only being conditions and as such conditions cease to have form and result in no-thing because they have no comparison. This "no-thingness" of conditions necessitates the will as dependent upon conditions in turn being free.
i read this from you in others comments, there is nonsense. Just make the premise and see if you are not arguing wrong.
From the premise of matter being the foundation of things this necessitates matter results in contradiction and from that contradiction anything goes.
But, why?

All this matter, following the laws of physics, have evolve in relations that make what we call "imagination", where we "think" and say things about the matter itself.

One of that thinking are for example "the human body is following the laws of physics in relationship with the enviroment".

And another kind of thinking are for example "the human body is NOT following the laws of physics in relationship with the enviroment".

What is the problem with that?


The matter creates true thinking and false thinking, in the same way it creates hot and cold, etc.


I think you are saying that "if the matter evolve to the thinking of that we are NOT following the laws of physics, then that is what ocurrs".

That nonsense.


But I dont care too much with that, you will learn if you still answer my questions in the way you are doing it.
As to the chocolate vs ice cream one is chosen out of the belief one is more satisfying than the other.
And why you have that belief and not other belief?

Where that belief came from?


I dont going to ask you why why why, because it will take too much time. You know what I am doing.


So, think about it.... if you answer all the why, you will have reach a limit where you have 3 options:

1- You will say that there is always a previous cause.

2- You found that there are no first cause.

3- You found that there is a first cause to the decision of ice cream instead of chocolate.




If you believe in 1, then, your decisión is not defined, you cannot call freewill to that.

If you believe in 2, then, your decisión is complete random, you cannot call freewill to that. Because it may be icecream or chocolate, always, just random.


I need to think you are better than that, so, I will think that you believe in 3.


Then, you must to define what is that "first cause".


And that is the interesting part.... because you have had do that....


You know what is the "first cause".... is God...


A God that is still here, beyond the forms, always, and is the foundation of all the matter.


But... if you really really really understand God, you know that is formless.


So, tell me, if you push someone uniformily in the back for a minute, has the person moved to the right or the left? NO.


God is only pushing forward, not to the right or the left.


Only when you think God as a form.... is where you think of God as something that can "decide", something that can be "free".


So, God is the first cause, but God cannot make you decide ice cream or chocolate. You cannot call freewill to that.
I wait for a response of this, thank you.
CHNOPS
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by CHNOPS »

Eodnhoj7, you really dont want to learn anything more.

Be honest with yourself.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by Agent Smith »

The truth of the matter as regards free will vs. determinism is like the liar paradox - we'll tie ourselves in knots over it. By and large, we're all human, all humans are living things, all living things are ...
promethean75
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by promethean75 »

Is your question: why, Mr. Anderson?
bobmax
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Re: Free Will and Determinism III

Post by bobmax »

Agent Smith wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:04 pm The truth of the matter as regards free will vs. determinism is like the liar paradox - we'll tie ourselves in knots over it. By and large, we're all human, all humans are living things, all living things are ...
I don't think so.
The paradox is only apparent.
Because there is no need for determinism to deny free will.

It is enough to approach the question from an ethical point of view.

It is not for nothing that Christian mysticism denies the existence of free will.
On the other hand, even the law of cause and effect is questionable.
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