Relational Truths Mean Nothing

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popeye1945
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by popeye1945 »

Sculptor,

Excellent, well stated!
Last edited by popeye1945 on Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by RCSaunders »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:19 pm 1. An angle of observation is the degree through which a being is observed.

2. This degree covers a part of being.

3. This part is a whole, in itself, given it is a totality of said specific part; ie a part is its own whole as it stands apart as a singular entity.

4. As a whole this part is complete on its own terms.

5. However anything existing on its own terms is empty given no contrast through comparison occurs thus resulting in an absence of identity.

6. The whole is empty as the individual part, as its own whole, is empty.

7. To speak of an "angle of observation" is to speak of nothing; it is nonsensical.

6. Relational truths mean nothing.
So, they let the inmates have computers now.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:08 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:30 pm
NO. You can't squirm out if this. I'm not as stupid as you think i am and I am not as stupid as you.
The entire thread is meaningless according to YOU.
My contributions are meaningful in as much as they point out the truth of that.
Now run along and stop wasting time on nonsense.
Uh...no...
er yes.
Its your stupid thread not mine.
Own it!
A thread is composed of all the interactions within it. You interacted within it thus the "stupidity", according to you, of the thread falls on you as well.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:26 pm "The statement that relational truths mean nothing." This statement is a nonsense statement, relational truths are the only kind there is. They are the relations between subject and object or the physical world and a conscious subject, all truth, all meaning is relative to the physical affects of the world upon the condition of ones biology. Biology is the measure of all things, change the biology and you change experience and experience is knowledge and knowledge is truth relative to biology. If relational truths meant nothing one would not find it safe to move within the world context, one could know nothing, experience nothing, in fact, there would be nothing. This can be stated in the relation between subject and object, take one away and the other ceases to be. Again there is only one kind of truth and that is relational truth. All meaning all truth is a biological readout of the relation of the world to one's biological condition.
1. Biology is an observation of how things relate from the starting point of what it organic. There are many other starting points as well: mathematics, logic, psychology, sociology, physics, chemistry etc. Each starting point is a relative beginning point and there is no standard for which point one begins with.

2. Relational truths mean nothing because they are dependent upon a further context, and that context is dependent on a further context, ad-infinitum. This leaves the relational truth as obscure due to an infinite regress (or progress).

3. "Relational truths mean nothing" is a self-negating statement, as it is relational, thus pointing to no-thingness (ie the absence of thingness) as absolute.

4. The totality of being, past/present/future/, as one moment is obscure because everything is connected as one. To connection is an absence of separation with separation being necessary for definition; the connection of everything is a universal sameness which has no distinction. Infinite absence of being is the same as infinite fullness of being as there is no distinction in either because of infinity.

5. The continual change of phenomena into further phenomena necessitates a void as constant. This void is evidenced in the fact that one phenomenon lacks qualities founded in the phenomenon it changes into, and vice-versa. This absence of qualities makes no-thingness as everpresent.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:50 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:26 pm "The statement that relational truths mean nothing." This statement is a nonsense statement, relational truths are the only kind there is. They are the relations between subject and object or the physical world and a conscious subject, all truth, all meaning is relative to the physical affects of the world upon the condition of ones biology. Biology is the measure of all things, change the biology and you change experience and experience is knowledge and knowledge is truth relative to biology. If relational truths meant nothing one would not find it safe to move within the world context, one could know nothing, experience nothing, in fact, there would be nothing. This can be stated in the relation between subject and object, take one away and the other ceases to be. Again there is only one kind of truth and that is relational truth. All meaning all truth is a biological readout of the relation of the world to one's biological condition.
True. and since everything he has said in the thread is also relational; not only is the statement meaningless, but if it were taken at face value the thread is also without meaning.
It means reality is without definition at its core; self-negation points to no-thingness thus the thread is meaningful.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by popeye1945 »

["1. Biology is an observation of how things relate from the starting point of what it organic. There are many other starting points as well: mathematics, logic, psychology, sociology, physics, chemistry etc. Each starting point is a relative beginning point and there is no standard for which point one begins with.
2. Relational truths mean nothing because they are dependent upon a further context, and that context is dependent on a further context, ad-infinitum. This leaves the relational truth as obscure due to an infinite regress (or progress).
3. "Relational truths mean nothing" is a self-negating statement, as it is relational, thus pointing to no-thingness (ie the absence of thingness) as absolute.
4. The totality of being, past/present/future/, as one moment is obscure because everything is connected as one. To connection is an absence of separation with separation being necessary for definition; the connection of everything is a universal sameness which has no distinction. Infinite absence of being is the same as infinite fullness of being as there is no distinction in either because of infinity.
5. The continual change of phenomena into further phenomena necessitates a void as constant. This void is evidenced in the fact that one phenomenon lacks qualities founded in the phenomenon it changes into, and vice-versa. This absence of qualities makes no-thingness as everpresent.
[/quote]

Eodnho,

1- There is but one starting point to experience/knowledge and that is a conscious subject, all these disciples that you mention are but biological extensions of the experience/knowledge of said subject. All knowledge/experience, all categories of thought arise from the relation of subject and object, read the world and biological consciousness.

2- Contexts like categories are synthetic creations to aid in our understanding of the world. The world is an open system open to the cosmos, which may or may not be an open system itself, this is our tentative context.

3- Relational truths point to both subject and object, again, the world and a conscious subject. Through this relation all meaning, all knowledge belongs to the conscious subject and never, read never to the object/world. The physical world is utterly meaningless, it can only acquire meaning when a conscious subject bestows meaning upon the world.

4- From this, I can see you're really thinking. All things being connected/the totality means no context, no categories these are just a means we use to try and understand our world because the entirety/totality is far beyond our limited mental powers. The rest is a little strange unless you are arguing against the reality of emergence.

5- Are you inferring here that space is empty? I can see your wheels are turning but I think your statements need a little more work, or perhaps just more clearly stated. As it stands, it is not understandable to me.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Sculptor »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:08 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:35 pm

Uh...no...
er yes.
Its your stupid thread not mine.
Own it!
A thread is composed of all the interactions within it. You interacted within it thus the "stupidity", according to you, of the thread falls on you as well.
Weak minded response.
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Sculptor
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Sculptor »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:50 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:26 pm "The statement that relational truths mean nothing." This statement is a nonsense statement, relational truths are the only kind there is. They are the relations between subject and object or the physical world and a conscious subject, all truth, all meaning is relative to the physical affects of the world upon the condition of ones biology. Biology is the measure of all things, change the biology and you change experience and experience is knowledge and knowledge is truth relative to biology. If relational truths meant nothing one would not find it safe to move within the world context, one could know nothing, experience nothing, in fact, there would be nothing. This can be stated in the relation between subject and object, take one away and the other ceases to be. Again there is only one kind of truth and that is relational truth. All meaning all truth is a biological readout of the relation of the world to one's biological condition.
True. and since everything he has said in the thread is also relational; not only is the statement meaningless, but if it were taken at face value the thread is also without meaning.
It means reality is without definition at its core; self-negation points to no-thingness thus the thread is meaningful.
Thank you for losing the plot.
PLONK!
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Sculptor »

This thread is the sad ramblings of a child who has reached adulthood and only now just realised with dismay the metaphorical nature of language and is now scared that he can't be so sure of himself or what others say to him anymore.

Well boo hoo. Most of us figure that out when we discover the difference between I and eye, when we are three years old
So stop BAWLING and start BALLING.

We all know what you; "NO!"

But of course none of this makes any sense to you because its all just relational.
DUH
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:47 am This thread is the sad ramblings of a child who has reached adulthood and only now just realised with dismay the metaphorical nature of language and is now scared that he can't be so sure of himself or what others say to him anymore.

Well boo hoo. Most of us figure that out when we discover the difference between I and eye, when we are three years old
So stop BAWLING and start BALLING.

We all know what you; "NO!"

But of course none of this makes any sense to you because its all just relational.
DUH
There you go wining again because someone doesn't agree with your perspective of reality.

Now to divert back to the argument from a separate angle.

1. All things are relational.

2. As relational the relation is composed of further relations as the thing is composed of further things.

3. "Relations relate to relations" is self-referential.

4. As self-referential there is no contrast.

5. This absence of contrast makes "relations" and "relations that compose relations" as indefinite.

6. As indefinite "relations" are no-thing, ie an absence of thingness.

7. All things as relational are all things as no-thing; "all" is indefinite or rather the totality of being is indefinite.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:34 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:08 pm
er yes.
Its your stupid thread not mine.
Own it!
A thread is composed of all the interactions within it. You interacted within it thus the "stupidity", according to you, of the thread falls on you as well.
Weak minded response.
There you go participating again. If this thread is "stupid", according to your stance, then you are "stupid" for being involved with it.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:35 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:42 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:50 pm

True. and since everything he has said in the thread is also relational; not only is the statement meaningless, but if it were taken at face value the thread is also without meaning.
It means reality is without definition at its core; self-negation points to no-thingness thus the thread is meaningful.
Thank you for losing the plot.
PLONK!
I will break it down for you further from another angle:

The totality of being is indefinite as it has no contrast, as indefinite it is no-thing, as no-thing every point is the center-point (as there is no boundary) thus all is meaningful.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:11 pm ["1. Biology is an observation of how things relate from the starting point of what it organic. There are many other starting points as well: mathematics, logic, psychology, sociology, physics, chemistry etc. Each starting point is a relative beginning point and there is no standard for which point one begins with.
2. Relational truths mean nothing because they are dependent upon a further context, and that context is dependent on a further context, ad-infinitum. This leaves the relational truth as obscure due to an infinite regress (or progress).
3. "Relational truths mean nothing" is a self-negating statement, as it is relational, thus pointing to no-thingness (ie the absence of thingness) as absolute.
4. The totality of being, past/present/future/, as one moment is obscure because everything is connected as one. To connection is an absence of separation with separation being necessary for definition; the connection of everything is a universal sameness which has no distinction. Infinite absence of being is the same as infinite fullness of being as there is no distinction in either because of infinity.
5. The continual change of phenomena into further phenomena necessitates a void as constant. This void is evidenced in the fact that one phenomenon lacks qualities founded in the phenomenon it changes into, and vice-versa. This absence of qualities makes no-thingness as everpresent.
Eodnho,

1- There is but one starting point to experience/knowledge and that is a conscious subject, all these disciples that you mention are but biological extensions of the experience/knowledge of said subject. All knowledge/experience, all categories of thought arise from the relation of subject and object, read the world and biological consciousness.

2- Contexts like categories are synthetic creations to aid in our understanding of the world. The world is an open system open to the cosmos, which may or may not be an open system itself, this is our tentative context.

3- Relational truths point to both subject and object, again, the world and a conscious subject. Through this relation all meaning, all knowledge belongs to the conscious subject and never, read never to the object/world. The physical world is utterly meaningless, it can only acquire meaning when a conscious subject bestows meaning upon the world.

4- From this, I can see you're really thinking. All things being connected/the totality means no context, no categories these are just a means we use to try and understand our world because the entirety/totality is far beyond our limited mental powers. The rest is a little strange unless you are arguing against the reality of emergence.

5- Are you inferring here that space is empty? I can see your wheels are turning but I think your statements need a little more work, or perhaps just more clearly stated. As it stands, it is not understandable to me.
[/quote]

1. The relation of subject to object shows a connection being subject an object thus necessitating a oneness. This oneness of being, as being through being, necessitates a self-reflection as a self-referentiality. This self-reflection, as self-referentiality of being, necessitates all of being as having awareness. All of being as aware, through "being through being", necessitates consciousness as beyond what is biological.

2. Contexts/categories emerge from reality thus are part of reality. If consciousness is a product of evolution then star-dust results in abstractions and as such contexts exist as phenomena not limited to our understanding.

3. The relation of moving water to a river bed points to subject and object being highly relative as from one point the water is the subject and from another point the water is the object. Now to go to your point and say the subject is the person and the object is the thing is also highly relative as a thing, such as a snow flake, can initiate changes in the subject thus turning them to the object. In shorter terms even subject and object are relative and to say "relational truths point to both subject and object" is to say "relational truths point to relational truths" or "subject/object points to subject/object" and we are left with an indefinite self-referentiality.

4. Categories are part of the emergence if all is grounded in the origin of "star dust" or "x" and "stardust/x" emerges. However, emergence is relative too as it again points to "being coming from being". This relation of "being to being" is self-referential thus indefinite as a self-contrast is no contrast as there is only the self.

5. I am stating that "nothingness" is relational as the void, which is the same as nothingness, occurs when one thing relates to another; this relation of one thing to another shows thing A as having qualities not found in thing B and thing B as having qualities not found in thing A. Each absence of quality in each thing is a void thus both things share the same nature of having voids. If all phenomena are relative then all phenomena exist with an inherent void thus void is universal.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Sculptor »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:13 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:47 am This thread is the sad ramblings of a child who has reached adulthood and only now just realised with dismay the metaphorical nature of language and is now scared that he can't be so sure of himself or what others say to him anymore.

Well boo hoo. Most of us figure that out when we discover the difference between I and eye, when we are three years old
So stop BAWLING and start BALLING.

We all know what you; "NO!"

But of course none of this makes any sense to you because its all just relational.
DUH
There you go wining again because someone doesn't agree with your perspective of reality.
:lol: Wonderful projection. I love wining, especially wining and dining, with a nice Rioja. But I think you mean whining, which is what the entire thread is. You whining and projecting that onto others.
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Re: Relational Truths Mean Nothing

Post by Sculptor »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:14 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:34 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:28 pm

A thread is composed of all the interactions within it. You interacted within it thus the "stupidity", according to you, of the thread falls on you as well.
Weak minded response.
There you go participating again. If this thread is "stupid", according to your stance, then you are "stupid" for being involved with it.
Not as stupid as you though.
At least you give me a laugh every few days! :lol:
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