Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Dasein
from Wikipedia
For Karl Jaspers, the term Dasein meant existence in its most minimal sense, the realm of objectivity and science, in opposition to what Jaspers called "Existenz", the realm of authentic being.
Of course: our objective and scientific existence. Still, however problematic even that might be, how can it ever possibly compare to the bewildering and conflicting assessments of what it means to live an authentic existence?

And, of course, for me, authenticity becomes spectacularly problematic when attempts are made to ascribe it to moral and political value judgments. Existenz then?

Perhaps. Let's choose a set of behaviors, a "conflicting good" of note, a set of circumstances and discuss it.
In Philosophy, Jaspers gave his view of the history of philosophy and introduced his major themes. Beginning with modern science and empiricism, Jaspers points out that as we question reality, we confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method can simply not transcend.
Shades of Wittgenstein. Or of Richard Rorty and "ironism":
* She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered;
*She realizes that argument phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts;
*Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.
With respect to moral and political value judgments.
At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls "Transcendence". In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.
Kierkegaard. Only No God.

But, come on, limitless freedom?!!!

Authentic existence outside a Planned Parenthood clinic? In the voting booth? In Ukraine? In grappling with the Second Amendment? With respect to human sexuality?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Dasein
from Wikipedia
Other applications

Eero Tarasti considered Dasein very important in Existential Semiotics. In Tarasti's view the term Dasein has been given a “broader” meaning, has stopped meaning the condition of an individual being flung into the world, having instead come to signify an “existential phase” with the sociohistoric characteristics from which signs extensively emerge.
Got that?

No, really, does that make any sense at all to you? If so, please note how it might be made applicable to our day-to-day human interactions. Again, in particular, when those interactions come into conflict as a result of "conflicting goods".

"Semiotics, put simply, is the study of how an idea or object communicates meaning — and what meaning it communicates. For example, “coffee” is a brewed beverage, but it also evokes comfort, alertness, creativity and countless other associations."

How about "Dasein" then? What does that evoke in you semiotically?

But I would certainly concur that dasein as I understand it is embedded in the "sociohistorical" characteristics of the particular world into which you are "thrown" adventitiously at birth.
From this point of view, transcendence is the desire to surpass realist acceptance of the world as it is and to move towards a political, ethical and planned reality of subjectivity in semiotic relations with the world.
Again, not entirely sure regarding the, what, philosophical meaning of this? But I do suspect it has something to do with my own suggestion that, for the objectivists among us, it is of great importance that they find a font -- God or No God -- that allows them to believe "in their head" that they have found a "transcending" frame of mind into which they can anchor their "one of us" [the smart, good guys] Self.

The rest we'll call...history?

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Belinda
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Belinda »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:18 pm Dasein
from Wikipedia
Other applications

Eero Tarasti considered Dasein very important in Existential Semiotics. In Tarasti's view the term Dasein has been given a “broader” meaning, has stopped meaning the condition of an individual being flung into the world, having instead come to signify an “existential phase” with the sociohistoric characteristics from which signs extensively emerge.
Got that?

No, really, does that make any sense at all to you? If so, please note how it might be made applicable to our day-to-day human interactions. Again, in particular, when those interactions come into conflict as a result of "conflicting goods".

"Semiotics, put simply, is the study of how an idea or object communicates meaning — and what meaning it communicates. For example, “coffee” is a brewed beverage, but it also evokes comfort, alertness, creativity and countless other associations."

How about "Dasein" then? What does that evoke in you semiotically?

But I would certainly concur that dasein as I understand it is embedded in the "sociohistorical" characteristics of the particular world into which you are "thrown" adventitiously at birth.
From this point of view, transcendence is the desire to surpass realist acceptance of the world as it is and to move towards a political, ethical and planned reality of subjectivity in semiotic relations with the world.
Again, not entirely sure regarding the, what, philosophical meaning of this? But I do suspect it has something to do with my own suggestion that, for the objectivists among us, it is of great importance that they find a font -- God or No God -- that allows them to believe "in their head" that they have found a "transcending" frame of mind into which they can anchor their "one of us" [the smart, good guys] Self.

The rest we'll call...history?

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
'Coffee' is a label which each speaker of English applies to her ever -changing personal experience of a cultural norm i.e. coffee. The cultural norm, because it's a consensus (usually), is slower to change than the individual's concept of coffee which may be marked by indigestion, hyperactivity, unaffordable price of the stuff, and so forth.

Socio-historical characteristics are dynamic, by contrast to unequivocal characteristics such as are imposed by commercial brands to protect their product, and similarly for political and religious brands.

Dasein is lived experience and therefor is dynamic. Therefor it's proper to view Dasein socio-historically.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Dasein
from Wikipedia
Other applications

Jacques Lacan turned in the 1950s to Heidegger's Dasein for his characterisation of the psychoanalyst as being-for-death (être-pour-la-mort). Similarly, he saw the analyst as searching for authentic speech, as opposed to “the subject who loses his meaning in the objectifications of discourse...[which] will give him the wherewithal to forget his own existence and his own death”.
For me, of course, dasein as a psychological contraption is best encompassed in the OP of this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

The subject objectifying his or own Self on one or another One True Path. Hell is not only other people, it becomes "I" itself without something -- anything -- to anchor the Self to. The God World objectivists merely extend that beyond the grave. Everything ultimately revolving around thoughts and feelings that best comfort and console you.

And it's not for nothing that even among the existentialists, the word "authenticity" often becomes of vital concern. One is required to reject the belief that essence precedes existence...but one is still expected to behave authentically.
Alfred Schütz distinguished between direct and indirect social experience, emphasising that in the latter, “My orientation is not toward the existence (Dasein) of a concrete individual Thou. It is not toward any subjective experiences now being constituted in all their uniqueness in another's mind”.
In other words, whatever for all practical purposes that means. And here, again, all I can ask is for those who think that they do know what it means to note how it is applicable to their own life...their own sense of identity...out in a world awash in conflicting goods.

What particular direct experiences given what specific context, Mr. Serious Philosopher.
Aleksandr Dugin uses Dasein as the foundation for the Fourth Political Theory, emphasizing Dasein and its role in Russian society. He puts this in opposition to Western (more specifically American) society, which is far too individualistic with an inauthentic view of individuality.
More theory. Dasein theoretically. I vs. We...theoretically.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll still need that context.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Belinda
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Belinda »

Jacques Lacan turned in the 1950s to Heidegger's Dasein for his characterisation of the psychoanalyst as being-for-death (être-pour-la-mort). Similarly, he saw the analyst as searching for authentic speech, as opposed to “the subject who loses his meaning in the objectifications of discourse...[which] will give him the wherewithal to forget his own existence and his own death”.
Death and dying come under being in the world . Awareness of death and dying is the most vivid awareness of being in the world, and therefore without awareness of death and dying the Dasein is not authentic and seeks to escape.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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From ILP:
Sculptor wrote:
Dasein my arse.
Heidegger would be horrified to see you use the term.
iambiguous wrote:...given a particular context in which members here have conflicting moral and political and spiritual value judgments, anytime Sculptor wants to explore the gap between Heidegger's intellectual/philosophical contraption Dasein in Being and Time and the manner in which I construe the existential meaning of dasein here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
Seriously, would anyone here like to sustain an intelligent and civil exchange regarding the distinction above?

His Dasein, my dasein. Given a particular context.

How about Hitler, Nazis and the Holocaust?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Belinda »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:43 pm Dasein
from Wikipedia
For Karl Jaspers, the term Dasein meant existence in its most minimal sense, the realm of objectivity and science, in opposition to what Jaspers called "Existenz", the realm of authentic being.
Of course: our objective and scientific existence. Still, however problematic even that might be, how can it ever possibly compare to the bewildering and conflicting assessments of what it means to live an authentic existence?

And, of course, for me, authenticity becomes spectacularly problematic when attempts are made to ascribe it to moral and political value judgments. Existenz then?

Perhaps. Let's choose a set of behaviors, a "conflicting good" of note, a set of circumstances and discuss it.
In Philosophy, Jaspers gave his view of the history of philosophy and introduced his major themes. Beginning with modern science and empiricism, Jaspers points out that as we question reality, we confront borders that an empirical (or scientific) method can simply not transcend.
Shades of Wittgenstein. Or of Richard Rorty and "ironism":
* She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered;
*She realizes that argument phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts;
*Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.
With respect to moral and political value judgments.
At this point, the individual faces a choice: sink into despair and resignation, or take a leap of faith toward what Jaspers calls "Transcendence". In making this leap, individuals confront their own limitless freedom, which Jaspers calls Existenz, and can finally experience authentic existence.
Kierkegaard. Only No God.

But, come on, limitless freedom?!!!

Authentic existence outside a Planned Parenthood clinic? In the voting booth? In Ukraine? In grappling with the Second Amendment? With respect to human sexuality?
Limitless freedom is the same as limitless love and care. These transcend what appears to be possible.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:21 pm From ILP:
Sculptor wrote:
Dasein my arse.
Heidegger would be horrified to see you use the term.
iambiguous wrote:...given a particular context in which members here have conflicting moral and political and spiritual value judgments, anytime Sculptor wants to explore the gap between Heidegger's intellectual/philosophical contraption Dasein in Being and Time and the manner in which I construe the existential meaning of dasein here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
Seriously, would anyone here like to sustain an intelligent and civil exchange regarding the distinction above?

His Dasein, my dasein. Given a particular context.

How about Hitler, Nazis and the Holocaust?
"Intelligent and Civil" and you bring up Hitler and the Holocaust.

I took a quick look at the links..
Neither address the matter of Dasein.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Heidegger and Dasein
at The-Philosophy.com website
Heidegger began in the first half of the twentieth century to revise the classical metaphysics, in order to deconstruct it to offer a new vision of ontological philosophy. Heidegger prefers to logic a phenomenological approach.
Right, a phenomenological approach to situating the self out in the world. As long as this discussion of phenomena doesn't actually include any actual existential human interactions. Indeed, if you set about revising "classical metaphysics" in regard to your own life, how would you go about it? Logic would still be applicable of course but would take a back set to epistemological contraptions pertaining to phenomenon?

To wit:
It differs in terms of what exists. Being is what is in all things, a reality in itself is but that does not exist, because this reality is not aware of itself, nor the world around him.
Indeed, millions no doubt go from the cradle to the grave barely noting at all that they exist only given a reality that is hammered into their head from the cradle to the grave. Only that was considerably easier to accomplish when communities consisted of small villages or hamlets...small communities such that everyone knew their place and everyone was in the only place they could ever imagine being in.

In the "modern world", however, that is considerably more difficult to accomplish. Just ask the autocrats dictating policy in China or Iran. Today there are countless sources of information -- technologies -- about countless communities that live lives very, very differently. Planting ideas in your head that the powers that be must keep out of there. In some places, like North Korea, that is accomplished ruthlessly. But in most communities things have become considerably more problematic.
To Exist is the ability to highlight what is beyond ourselves, because any illumination, including itself, requires passing a distance vis-à-vis self with that is. Exist in fact, is moving towards something, and to do that it takes the distance.
That's certainly true enough. And only our own species is capable of grappling with that as a philosophical issue. On the other hand, most of us are far more concerned with what is "beyond us" existentially...at home, in our relationships, on the job, in regard to our health, when it comes to paying the bills. And, of course, what happens when, in moving towards something in particular, others get in our way or try to stop us.
The existence is somehow the path to the obvious that is. And what is the “being there”, the “Dasein” in Heidegger. That being is not specifically a phenomenon in space-time point, but what can be, what is possible.
If, for example, you are a Jew in Nazi Germany, or black in a racist community, or a woman in a sexist community, or gay in a homophobic community. Phenomena of that sort. Phenomena that I construe in terms of dasein as explored here in my signature threads.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:25 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:21 pm From ILP:
Sculptor wrote:
Dasein my arse.
Heidegger would be horrified to see you use the term.
iambiguous wrote:...given a particular context in which members here have conflicting moral and political and spiritual value judgments, anytime Sculptor wants to explore the gap between Heidegger's intellectual/philosophical contraption Dasein in Being and Time and the manner in which I construe the existential meaning of dasein here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
Seriously, would anyone here like to sustain an intelligent and civil exchange regarding the distinction above?

His Dasein, my dasein. Given a particular context.

How about Hitler, Nazis and the Holocaust?
"Intelligent and Civil" and you bring up Hitler and the Holocaust.
Think of Dasein and many think of Heidegger. Think of Heidegger and many think of Hitler, the Nazis and the Holocaust. Now, those like you will either attempt to connect the dots between them or you won't.

Also, as I have noted previously...
In these discussions, dasein [from my end existentially] is just a particular take on Heidegger's philosophical conjectures. We exist "in time" and "in place". In other words, in particular times and particular places. And that can often have a profound impact on how we come to see ourselves and the world around us.
...re dasein, we are "thrown" adventitiously at birth into a particular historical and cultural and experiential context; and, in turn, we are always situated out in a particular world awash in contingency, chance and change...
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:25 pmI took a quick look at the links..
Neither address the matter of Dasein.
How quick?

And far more to the point [mine] in regard to your own value judgments, how is my assessment nothing at all like yours.

Given an actual set of circumstances.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:37 am
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:25 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:21 pm From ILP:





Seriously, would anyone here like to sustain an intelligent and civil exchange regarding the distinction above?

His Dasein, my dasein. Given a particular context.

How about Hitler, Nazis and the Holocaust?
"Intelligent and Civil" and you bring up Hitler and the Holocaust.
Think of Dasein and many think of Heidegger. Think of Heidegger and many think of Hitler, the Nazis and the Holocaust. Now, those like you will either attempt to connect the dots between them or you won't.

Also, as I have noted previously...
In these discussions, dasein [from my end existentially] is just a particular take on Heidegger's philosophical conjectures. We exist "in time" and "in place". In other words, in particular times and particular places. And that can often have a profound impact on how we come to see ourselves and the world around us.
...re dasein, we are "thrown" adventitiously at birth into a particular historical and cultural and experiential context; and, in turn, we are always situated out in a particular world awash in contingency, chance and change...
Sculptor wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:25 pmI took a quick look at the links..
Neither address the matter of Dasein.
How quick?

And far more to the point [mine] in regard to your own value judgments, how is my assessment nothing at all like yours.

Given an actual set of circumstances.
The connection between Heidegger and Dasein is obvious.
The link to Heidegger with Hitler and the Holocaust is tenuous at best.
Sein und Zeit was conceived in the 1920 and written in 1927. Like any German living in the war, MH had to work for the Reich.
Hitler did not have the intellectual capacity to understand MH.
You might as well blame Darwin for the Holocaust as if Hitler really understood Natural Selection. (hint: he did not).

Hitler was dangerously intelligent, but he was basically uneducated.
Is there any evidence to make any serious association between Dasein and Hitler?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm
The connection between Heidegger and Dasein is obvious.
That's not my point. My point revolves around finding someone here convinced that they do grasp the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time...and bringing their understanding of it down out of the philosophical clouds and, given a particular context, comparing and contrasting it with my own understanding of dasein from these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm The link to Heidegger with Hitler and the Holocaust is tenuous at best.
Sein und Zeit was conceived in the 1920 and written in 1927. Like any German living in the war, MH had to work for the Reich.
Admittedly, I don't have a vast knowledge of Heidegger the man back then. But if you Google "heidegger and the nazis" you get this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=heidegg ... stick:,cid:

Here's one link that seems to suggest he was more enthusiastic about them than you yourself seem to suggest.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/201 ... own-words/

Though I'm sure there are links that distance him from them.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm Is there any evidence to make any serious association between Dasein and Hitler?
Right, like Heidegger was never once asked himself to connect the dots between Dasein and Hitler. And, sure, maybe no one ever did. But that's the first thing that I would have asked him.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:54 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm
The connection between Heidegger and Dasein is obvious.
That's not my point. My point revolves around finding someone here convinced that they do grasp the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time...and bringing their understanding of it down out of the philosophical clouds and, given a particular context, comparing and contrasting it with my own understanding of dasein from these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
I spend several session in University seminars led by a Heidegger expert, and my conclusion was that the phrase "the meaning of Dasein" is an optimistic idea, since every one seems to have their own view on this. And maybe that is the key to unpacking the idea. Since the apprehension of the concepts is by nature existential, then what it means has to be personal.


Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm The link to Heidegger with Hitler and the Holocaust is tenuous at best.
Sein und Zeit was conceived in the 1920 and written in 1927. Like any German living in the war, MH had to work for the Reich.
Admittedly, I don't have a vast knowledge of Heidegger the man back then. But if you Google "heidegger and the nazis" you get this:
What is telling is a sentence at the top
"on May 1, 1933, ten days after being elected Rector of the University of Freiburg. A year later, in April 1934, he resigned the Rectorship and stopped taking part in Nazi Party meetings,"
He sucked it and saw it for what it was Probably found it somewhat lacking in intellectual rigor. As time progressed leaving the party would be tantamount to suicide.

Here's one link that seems to suggest he was more enthusiastic about them than you yourself seem to suggest.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/201 ... own-words/

Though I'm sure there are links that distance him from them.
I'm not sure you can take that much from de-contexted snippets. I'm not here to defend Heidegger in this respect. Politically he was probably an arsehole and I doubt he and I would ever vote for the same person, but that would not detract from the meaning and value of his ideas.
I think Jordan Peterson is a ex-drug addict, righthard religious loony but he has interesting things to witness about his and his daughter's carnivorous lifestyle that are worth a listen to.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm Is there any evidence to make any serious association between Dasein and Hitler?
Right, like Heidegger was never once asked himself to connect the dots between Dasein and Hitler. And, sure, maybe no one ever did. But that's the first thing that I would have asked him.
I think if Hitler knew Heidegger, or if Heidegger were interested in Hitler then the former would have recruited for the war effort and heidegger would have used his influence to greater effect during Hitler's time.
As it appears the Heidegger kept his head way below the parapets, we might conclude that he was reluctant to engage in all that political murder.
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:35 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:54 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm
The connection between Heidegger and Dasein is obvious.
That's not my point. My point revolves around finding someone here convinced that they do grasp the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time...and bringing their understanding of it down out of the philosophical clouds and, given a particular context, comparing and contrasting it with my own understanding of dasein from these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
I spend several session in University seminars led by a Heidegger expert, and my conclusion was that the phrase "the meaning of Dasein" is an optimistic idea, since every one seems to have their own view on this. And maybe that is the key to unpacking the idea. Since the apprehension of the concepts is by nature existential, then what it means has to be personal.
Right, whatever that means.

But my challenge remains. Think you understand the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time? Think that my own understanding of it from the threads above is bullshit?

Then, given a particular set of circumstances revolving around conflicting goods, let's dig a little deeper into our respective philosophies.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm The link to Heidegger with Hitler and the Holocaust is tenuous at best.
Sein und Zeit was conceived in the 1920 and written in 1927. Like any German living in the war, MH had to work for the Reich.
Admittedly, I don't have a vast knowledge of Heidegger the man back then. But if you Google "heidegger and the nazis" you get this:
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm What is telling is a sentence at the top
"on May 1, 1933, ten days after being elected Rector of the University of Freiburg. A year later, in April 1934, he resigned the Rectorship and stopped taking part in Nazi Party meetings,"
He sucked it and saw it for what it was Probably found it somewhat lacking in intellectual rigor. As time progressed leaving the party would be tantamount to suicide.
Again, there are conflicting assessments of the actual historical facts. But my own aim here is still the challenge I propose above.
Here's one link that seems to suggest he was more enthusiastic about them than you yourself seem to suggest.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/201 ... own-words/

Though I'm sure there are links that distance him from them.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I'm not sure you can take that much from de-contexted snippets. I'm not here to defend Heidegger in this respect. Politically he was probably an arsehole and I doubt he and I would ever vote for the same person, but that would not detract from the meaning and value of his ideas.
Okay, but the meaning and the value of his ideas taken down out of the philosophical clouds and interpreted existentially out in the world of ceaseless moral and political conflagrations?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I think Jordan Peterson is a ex-drug addict, righthard religious loony but he has interesting things to witness about his and his daughter's carnivorous lifestyle that are worth a listen to.
Same with him. Given that my own interest in dasein revolves around this...

"How ought one to behave morally in a world awash in both conflicting goods and contingency, chance and change"?

Given a particular context. Any Jordan Peterson scholars here care to go there?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm Is there any evidence to make any serious association between Dasein and Hitler?
Right, like Heidegger was never once asked himself to connect the dots between Dasein and Hitler. And, sure, maybe no one ever did. But that's the first thing that I would have asked him.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I think if Hitler knew Heidegger, or if Heidegger were interested in Hitler then the former would have recruited for the war effort and heidegger would have used his influence to greater effect during Hitler's time.
As it appears the Heidegger kept his head way below the parapets, we might conclude that he was reluctant to engage in all that political murder.
Sure, maybe. But that doesn't really tell us what Heidegger might have noted if he were asked to connect the dots between Dasein from Being and Time and Hitler and the Nazis and the Holocaust.

Any speculations about that from the Heidegger scholars?
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:10 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:35 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:54 pm

That's not my point. My point revolves around finding someone here convinced that they do grasp the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time...and bringing their understanding of it down out of the philosophical clouds and, given a particular context, comparing and contrasting it with my own understanding of dasein from these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
I spend several session in University seminars led by a Heidegger expert, and my conclusion was that the phrase "the meaning of Dasein" is an optimistic idea, since every one seems to have their own view on this. And maybe that is the key to unpacking the idea. Since the apprehension of the concepts is by nature existential, then what it means has to be personal.
Right, whatever that means.

But my challenge remains. Think you understand the meaning of Dasein from Being and Time? Think that my own understanding of it from the threads above is bullshit?

Then, given a particular set of circumstances revolving around conflicting goods, let's dig a little deeper into our respective philosophies.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm The link to Heidegger with Hitler and the Holocaust is tenuous at best.
Sein und Zeit was conceived in the 1920 and written in 1927. Like any German living in the war, MH had to work for the Reich.
Admittedly, I don't have a vast knowledge of Heidegger the man back then. But if you Google "heidegger and the nazis" you get this:
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm What is telling is a sentence at the top
"on May 1, 1933, ten days after being elected Rector of the University of Freiburg. A year later, in April 1934, he resigned the Rectorship and stopped taking part in Nazi Party meetings,"
He sucked it and saw it for what it was Probably found it somewhat lacking in intellectual rigor. As time progressed leaving the party would be tantamount to suicide.
Again, there are conflicting assessments of the actual historical facts. But my own aim here is still the challenge I propose above.
Here's one link that seems to suggest he was more enthusiastic about them than you yourself seem to suggest.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/201 ... own-words/

Though I'm sure there are links that distance him from them.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I'm not sure you can take that much from de-contexted snippets. I'm not here to defend Heidegger in this respect. Politically he was probably an arsehole and I doubt he and I would ever vote for the same person, but that would not detract from the meaning and value of his ideas.
Okay, but the meaning and the value of his ideas taken down out of the philosophical clouds and interpreted existentially out in the world of ceaseless moral and political conflagrations?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I think Jordan Peterson is a ex-drug addict, righthard religious loony but he has interesting things to witness about his and his daughter's carnivorous lifestyle that are worth a listen to.
Same with him. Given that my own interest in dasein revolves around this...

"How ought one to behave morally in a world awash in both conflicting goods and contingency, chance and change"?

Given a particular context. Any Jordan Peterson scholars here care to go there?
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm Is there any evidence to make any serious association between Dasein and Hitler?
Right, like Heidegger was never once asked himself to connect the dots between Dasein and Hitler. And, sure, maybe no one ever did. But that's the first thing that I would have asked him.
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:06 pm I think if Hitler knew Heidegger, or if Heidegger were interested in Hitler then the former would have recruited for the war effort and heidegger would have used his influence to greater effect during Hitler's time.
As it appears the Heidegger kept his head way below the parapets, we might conclude that he was reluctant to engage in all that political murder.
Sure, maybe. But that doesn't really tell us what Heidegger might have noted if he were asked to connect the dots between Dasein from Being and Time and Hitler and the Nazis and the Holocaust.

Any speculations about that from the Heidegger scholars?
1. Understanding Dasein or valuing Heidegger's theory is not to be found by trying to unpack his relationship with the Nazi regime. So I think we need to drop that. Hitler, the Holocaust and Naziism played no part in our discussions about Dasein. As I said already it was written in 1926, about the same time as Mein Kampf, written in prison. There is very little else to unite any of the ideas in the two books. The party was still only a handful of marginalised nationalistic nutters.

2. I said; "And maybe that is the key to unpacking the idea. Since the apprehension of the concepts is by nature existential, then what it means has to be personal." you responded "whatever that means". It does not auger well for a discussion about Dasein or Heidegger, if you find yourself puzzled by this statement. DO you want me to re-state it? Because if you don't get that then we might have very little to say.
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