Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:53 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:36 pm ...note the substantive arguments I've made in regard to my own understanding of human identity out in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments.
I note them. And like the above, they make no sense.
This is what he allows himself to be reduced down to here. I only expose it.

And all I can do is to ask him to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.

That way, given this set of circumstances, he can note specifically the parts of my own frame of mind that make no sense to him.
Last edited by iambiguous on Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:53 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:36 pm ...note the substantive arguments I've made in regard to my own understanding of human identity out in the is/ought world of conflicting moral and political value judgments.
I note them. And like the above, they make no sense.
This is what he allows himself to be reduced down to here.
To whom are you talking?
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:48 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:53 pm
I note them. And like the above, they make no sense.
This is what he allows himself to be reduced down to here.
To whom are you talking?
How about this:

I am willing to allow others to decide for themselves to whom my observations here are directed.

Though again:

And all I can do is to ask him to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.

That way, given this set of circumstances, he can note specifically the parts of my own frame of mind that make no sense to him.
Last edited by iambiguous on Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:48 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:33 pm
This is what he allows himself to be reduced down to here.
To whom are you talking?
How about this:

I am willing to allow others to decide for themselves to whom my observations here are directed.
That's ridiculous. I cannot possibly say to whom YOU are intending to speak. Nor does anybody else read your mind.

So to whom are you intending to speak?
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:56 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:48 pm
To whom are you talking?
How about this:

I am willing to allow others to decide for themselves to whom my observations here are directed.
That's ridiculous. I cannot possibly say to whom YOU are intending to speak. Nor does anybody else read your mind.

So to whom are you intending to speak?
Note to others:

In regard to this...

And all I can do is to ask him to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.

That way, given this set of circumstances, he can note specifically the parts of my own frame of mind that make no sense to him.


...to whom do you think I am intending to speak?
Last edited by iambiguous on Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:20 pm Note to others:...to whom do you think I am intending to speak?
How the heck should they know what's rattling around inside your noggin? :?

If you can't say, then how on earth can you expect them to be able to?
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:03 pm
iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:20 pm Note to others:...to whom do you think I am intending to speak?
How the heck should they know what's rattling around inside your noggin? :?

If you can't say, then how on earth can you expect them to be able to?
Okay, how about now:

And all I can do is to ask Immanuel Can to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.

That way, given this set of circumstances, Immanuel Can can note specifically the parts of my own frame of mind that make no sense to him.


:wink:
Atla
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Atla »

What kind of dasein is needed for the remarkably stupid belief, that the sense of self is a blank slate before being thrown into the world? Let's connect the dots I say.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:25 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:03 pm
iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:20 pm Note to others:...to whom do you think I am intending to speak?
How the heck should they know what's rattling around inside your noggin? :?

If you can't say, then how on earth can you expect them to be able to?
Okay, how about now:

And all I can do is to ask Immanuel Can to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.
Which "particular context" do you want me to "note"? Which context of what? And what do you mean you want me to "note" it?
And what makes you think one "acquires" a "self"? Where did you get that notion from?
Who's "attacking" a "set of behaviours"? Can one even DO that? :shock:
That way, given this set of circumstances,
Which "circumstances"?
Immanuel Can can note specifically the parts of my own frame of mind

Now I'm supposed to "note" parts of YOUR "frame of mind"? By what...opening your cranium and peering in? :shock:
that make no sense to him.
That would include all of the above.
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:25 pm And all I can do is to ask Immanuel Can to note a particular context that is now unfolding out in the world we live in -- one we are all likely to be familiar with involving conflicting moral and political assessments -- and explore with me our respective understanding of how one acquires a "sense of self" in defending or attacking one set of behaviors rather than another.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:47 pm Which "particular context" do you want me to "note"? Which context of what? And what do you mean you want me to "note" it?
Come on, there are many, many contexts in which individuals have conflicting moral and political value judgments. Pick up a newspaper and read all about them.

Now, why do we come to so many conflicting points of view here as individuals? How can that possibly not be profoundly related to our historical era, our culture, our indoctrination as children, our uniquely individual experiences as adults?

And, given that, what is one to do but to latch on to this God or that God, this political ideology or that political ideology, this deontological assessment or that deontological assessment, these assumptions about nature, or those assumptions about nature.

I merely suggest that this rooted in dasein, in the manner in which I encompass my own "sense of self" on these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

And then given a set of circumstance we are all familiar with at the existential intersection of identity, value judgments, conflicting goods and political economy, we can explore human identity more substantively.

Or, sure, given the main components of your own understanding of how we come to acquire a sense of self in our interactions with others.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:47 pm And what makes you think one "acquires" a "self"? Where did you get that notion from?
It's not a "notion" -- 'a conception of or belief about something' -- it's a description of how my life unfolded existentially such that "I" came to believe this and not that about particular moral and political value judgments.

The same with you. Your life just happened to predispose you "here and now" to believe in the Christian God.

After all, beyond that, there's no way [that I' am aware of] that you can demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in Him too. Or can you? How is your belief here not just one more "existential leap of faith"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:47 pm Who's "attacking" a "set of behaviours"? Can one even DO that? :shock:
Are you kidding me?!!! Ask the folks in Ukraine if they are not attacking Putin's "set of behaviors". Ask Ketanji Brown Jackson if Republicans aren't attacking hers.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:30 pm Come on, there are many, many contexts...
Not for me to specify.

For you.
Now, why do we come to so many conflicting points of view here as individuals?

Ummm... :shock: Because we are "individuals," and "individuals" have different interests. They live in different bodies and different locations, know different people, do different things...

Is any of this rocket science to you?
And then given a set of circumstance we are all familiar with at the existential intersection of identity, value judgments, conflicting goods and political economy, we can explore human identity more substantively.
I haven't got the first clue what you mean by all this.

The problem you're experiencing is a thing called "vagueness." It happens not when you refer to something that's not real, but when the way you refer to the thing is by way of such a broad concept that it specifies -- and hence refers to -- nothing in particular at all.

It's up to you to specify. It's not up to your audience to do the hard work of trying to read your mind or imagine what you "might" be trying to say. It's up to you to say it in such a way that rational people can understand specifically what you mean.
Atla
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by Atla »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:30 pm
Now, why do we come to so many conflicting points of view here as individuals?

Ummm... :shock: Because we are "individuals," and "individuals" have different interests. They live in different bodies and different locations, know different people, do different things...

Is any of this rocket science to you?
With such a deep level of insight, you might have fried his brain I'm afraid. :)
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

Post by iambiguous »

What is Dasein?
by John C. Brady
Epoché Philosophy Monthly
Thinking is not the only way of being of Dasein. Even if every instance of thinking carries with it an “I”, the being that we each ourselves are is not exhausted in the kinds of self-conscious reflection whereby the Cartesian ego is discovered.
The Cartesian ego...

The "phantom self"? The "ghost in the machine"? The "homunculus"?

In other words, whatever one wants to call the gap between what he or she thinks "I" is and what in fact it actually is instead.

And how many of us here will go to the grave before science or philosophy pins that down? My guess: all of us.

On the other hand, we can merely presume that what we think it is is in fact what it is. Call it, say, your "soul".
Most of the time we’re just busy getting “stuff” done. It’s this feature of us, these beings that we are, that Heidegger pays special attention to: Dasein in its “everydayness”.
Yes, Dasein in the either/or world. Where there actually is an objective reality that never changes from day to day to day. And then those who think -- delude? -- themselves into believing that in the is/ought world Dasein just carries on per usual. As though the Self in both worlds are interchangeable. Why? Because God or His secular equivalent is there to fall back on to make everything either this or that. The crucial "transcending font" that "I" can be anchored to.

Which, it seems, is completely irrelevant here:
That is, Cartesian skepticism or intense philosophical reflection or scientific inquiry are obviously two ways of being that the beings that we are are capable of; as is scaling the north face of Mt Everest and being launched to the moon. But these impressive and rare capabilities of this entity that we are need to be understood as special cases of a more general, less exciting but no less mysterious, context. The general context of this being that we are “is to be shown as it is proximally and for the most part — in its average everydayness.” The name for this is Dasein.

This is to say that prior to being this or that thing (a rational animal, a res cogitans, a brain, etc) we are firstly just being. Heidegger hopes to capture this being in its effervescent verb form prior to its reification into “I” and “thinking”.
Got that?

Okay then take this point down out of the intellectual clouds and note its applicability to "I" in the is/ought world. Not "scaling the north face of Mt Everest and being launched to the moon" but into discussions that shift the focus to whether men and women ought to pursue these things. Is it necessarily rationally to send astronauts to the Moon, or is it more necessarily rational to spend those billions and billions of dollars to solve problems down here on Earth?

And how ridiculous might it perhaps be construed to speak of someone "just being", without a context in which they are being this when others insist they ought to be being that instead. What of Dasein here?

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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iambiguous
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:30 pm Come on, there are many, many contexts...
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:30 pm Not for me to specify.

For you.
Look, I have already noted in some detail the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein given my views on the morality of abortion in this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

I am merely giving you the opportunity to choose another context...one that is of particular interest or importance to you.
Now, why do we come to so many conflicting points of view here as individuals?

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:30 pm Ummm... :shock: Because we are "individuals," and "individuals" have different interests. They live in different bodies and different locations, know different people, do different things...

Is any of this rocket science to you?
Ah, so you are basically agreeing with my point. In regard to abortion, some will have a greater interest in it than others. They will interact with different people who have different opinions about it. They will have their own unique trajectory of personal experiences that prompt them to embrace one rather than another set of political prejudices regarding it.
And then given a set of circumstance we are all familiar with at the existential intersection of identity, value judgments, conflicting goods and political economy, we can explore human identity more substantively.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:30 pm I haven't got the first clue what you mean by all this.

The problem you're experiencing is a thing called "vagueness."

It happens not when you refer to something that's not real, but when the way you refer to the thing is by way of such a broad concept that it specifies -- and hence refers to -- nothing in particular at all.
On the contrary, regarding my own sense of identity with respect to the morality of abortion re the thread above, I am being very, very specific. Instead, the "vagueness" you crave revolves around your sacred definitions and deductions up in the intellectual clouds.

No doubt you leave the "specificity" here to your Christian God on Judgment Day.

I challenge you to explore your own "sense of self" in regard to the morality of abortion or a context of your own choosing. Either as you think Heidegger does in examining Dasein in Being or Time or as you do through your Christian God that, from my frame of mind, exists by and large only "in your head".
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Dasein/dasein

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iambiguous wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:12 pm In regard to abortion...
Go to the abortion thread.
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