nihilism

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Phil8659
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Re: nihilism

Post by Phil8659 »

FrankGSterleJr
So, should the nude child photography be disregarded because of Carroll’s brilliance? To me, that is basically what it amounts to. ... I find it troubling how many experts and non-experts/fans still apologetically come to Carroll’s defense on this matter, as though his literary greatness still merits in contemporary times a blind eye on those unacceptable photographs.
I elevated my response to a Topic, The Charles Dodgson Doppler Shift. To save space here.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

FrankGSterleJr wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:27 am So, should the nude child photography be disregarded because of Carroll’s brilliance? To me, that is basically what it amounts to. ... I find it troubling how many experts and non-experts/fans still apologetically come to Carroll’s defense on this matter, as though his literary greatness still merits in contemporary times a blind eye on those unacceptable photographs.
We can like/love his book and dislike/hate what he did with children. It is true that people often have a hard time dealing with the outside their art behavior of their creative heroes. But really, people can be complicated. You can create something wonderful and be a criminal.

But then the topic is nihilism. A nihilist could simply not care about the behavior while liking his books (or not) Other nihilist might have a strong negative emotional reaction to the behavior but like the book. They might even fight for legislation against such behavior, not thinking it is objectively wrong, but not wanting it as part of society, say.

The people who are justifying Carroll's behavior, with the children, are not quite nihilists. Some, according to you it seems, argue that given his greatness as an author we should overlook his treatment of children. That's not a nihilist stance. That's a moral argument, if a poor one. Others likely just don't know what to do, so they rationalize in a variety of ways. But I didn't see a nihilist reponse in those positions you are complaining about. Or maybe I missed it.

So, how do you connect nihilism to people's thoughts on Lewis Carroll or Woody Allen?
Belinda
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Re: nihilism

Post by Belinda »

Phil, your discussion of nihilism last Wednesday is interesting. I did not know nihilism was experience and affect, I thought it was a cognitive stance. Anyway what you wrote about the experience of dying was unusually optimistic.
I did not understand why you would be persona non grata at NASA. Could you spell it out please?
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

Post by iambiguous »

Thomas Nagel
The Absurd
Whether what we do now will matter in a million years could make the crucial difference only if its mattering in a million years depended on its mattering, period. But then to deny that whatever happens now will matter in a million years is to beg the question against its mattering, period; for in that sense one cannot know that it will not matter in a million years whether (for example) someone now is happy or miserable, without knowing that it does not matter, period.
And for the life of me, I can't see this as relevant to anything we do -- or to anything we might be feeling now -- without the existence of God. Something or someone has to be around to connect the dots past, present and future. And this someone or something would surely need to have a teleological component. The part where our life can be said to have a meaning or a purpose. Aside from religion, what else is there?
What we say to convey the absurdity of our lives often has to do with space or time: we are tiny specks in the infinite vastness of the universe; our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute.
Of course some rush towards this, grappling, philosophically or otherwise, to fit it into their lives, while others do everything in their power to keep it far, far off in the distance. Or they make it all go away through God and religion. But there it is: "I" in the stupendous vastness of all there is.

What's your "solution"?
But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we lived forever; would not a life that is absurd if it lasts seventy years be infinitely absurd if it lasted through eternity?
Again, it always comes down to what each of us as individuals deems the absurd to be. If we interact with others or live a life of solitude and ascribe meaning and purpose to the things we do, the "philosophical absurd" can for "all practical purposes" become moot. But if we deem it necessary to subsume this existential meaning in an essential meaning and purpose and can find none, the existential meaning is not nothing. One can want to live forever simply because forever is ample time to enjoy the things that bring us satisfaction and fulfilment...the food we eat, the friendships we have, the music we enjoy, the sex we share. Who needs a life that is not absurd for that? In fact, to the extent that many do believe in one or another God or ideology or philosophy or life, their own satisfaction and fulfilment is often truncated by one or another straight and narrow path they are expected to follow.
And if our lives are absurd given our present size, why would they be any less absurd if we filled the universe (either because we were larger or because the universe was smaller)? Reflection on our minuteness and brevity appears to be intimately connected with the sense that life is meaningless; but it is not clear what the connection is.
Cue "the gap" and "Rummy's Rule" here for those like me. The "connection" seems clearly to be far, far, far beyond our grasp.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195600
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
Belinda
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Re: nihilism

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
That's what I thought too. I had not associated the word with the feeling of utter absence of meaning which we might call a symptom of clinical depression. I suppose Durkheimian anomie must include not only sociological but also felt absence of meaning.
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
Talk about a "general description intellectual contraption"!! :wink:
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:57 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
That's what I thought too. I had not associated the word with the feeling of utter absence of meaning which we might call a symptom of clinical depression. I suppose Durkheimian anomie must include not only sociological but also felt absence of meaning.
Belinda,

Yes, I think you have captured the essence of it. In a person's daily life if there are not high values and significant meanings values etc.. life would be simply an endurance.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:31 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
Talk about a "general description intellectual contraption"!! :wink:
ambiguous,

LOL!! I'll take that as a compliment!
Belinda
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Re: nihilism

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:57 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
That's what I thought too. I had not associated the word with the feeling of utter absence of meaning which we might call a symptom of clinical depression. I suppose Durkheimian anomie must include not only sociological but also felt absence of meaning.
Belinda,

Yes, I think you have captured the essence of it. In a person's daily life if there are not high values and significant meanings values etc.. life would be simply an endurance.
I don't know about that Popeye. I find what matters most to me is small experiences. Those are difficult to assemble into a generality of any sort. The best I can do in the direction of eternal principles is Good -Truth -Beauty. Beauty is easier to generalise on than Good or Truth.
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

Post by iambiguous »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:09 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:31 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 am Nihilism is the utter absence of meaning, values are meanings, that would require an absolute absence of all conscious subjects and if such be the case the world would be utterly meaningless, a void of meaningless energy.
Talk about a "general description intellectual contraption"!! :wink:
ambiguous,

LOL!! I'll take that as a compliment!
With some, that doesn't surprise me at all.

But if, in my opinion, the most important function of philosophy revolves around 1] bringing technical arguments relating to the rules of language and 2] an exploration into what we can know down out of the scholastic, academic clouds and out into the world of human interactions that [over and again] come into conflict over moral and political and spiritual value judgments, a discussion of nihilism becomes profoundly existential.

Or, as Will Durant once put it...

"In the end it is dishonesty that breeds the sterile intellectualism of contemporary speculation. A man who is not certain of his mental integrity shuns the vital problems of human existence; at any moment the great laboratory of life may explode his little lie and leave him naked and shivering in the face of truth. So he builds himself an ivory tower of esoteric tomes and professionally philosophical periodicals; he is comfortable only in their company...he wanders farther and farther away from his time and place, and from the problems that absorb his people and his century. The vast concerns that properly belong to philosophy do not concern him...He retreats into a little corner, and insulates himself from the world under layer and layer of technical terminology. He ceases to be a philosopher, and becomes an epistemologist."

Is that what you are, one of Durant's "epistemologists"? :wink:
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:50 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:09 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:31 pm

Talk about a "general description intellectual contraption"!! :wink:
ambiguous,

LOL!! I'll take that as a compliment!
With some, that doesn't surprise me at all.

But if, in my opinion, the most important function of philosophy revolves around 1] bringing technical arguments relating to the rules of language and 2] an exploration into what we can know down out of the scholastic, academic clouds and out into the world of human interactions that [over and again] come into conflict over moral and political and spiritual value judgments, a discussion of nihilism becomes profoundly existential.

Or, as Will Durant once put it...

"In the end it is dishonesty that breeds the sterile intellectualism of contemporary speculation. A man who is not certain of his mental integrity shuns the vital problems of human existence; at any moment the great laboratory of life may explode his little lie and leave him naked and shivering in the face of truth. So he builds himself an ivory tower of esoteric tomes and professionally philosophical periodicals; he is comfortable only in their company...he wanders farther and farther away from his time and place, and from the problems that absorb his people and his century. The vast concerns that properly belong to philosophy do not concern him...He retreats into a little corner, and insulates himself from the world under layer and layer of technical terminology. He ceases to be a philosopher, and becomes an epistemologist."

Is that what you are, one of Durant's "epistemologists"? :wink:
ambiguous,
And you an ambiguous politician?
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:18 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:57 am

That's what I thought too. I had not associated the word with the feeling of utter absence of meaning which we might call a symptom of clinical depression. I suppose Durkheimian anomie must include not only sociological but also felt absence of meaning.
Belinda,

Yes, I think you have captured the essence of it. In a person's daily life if there are not high values and significant meanings values etc.. life would be simply an endurance.
I don't know about that Popeye. I find what matters most to me is small experiences. Those are difficult to assemble into a generality of any sort. The best I can do in the direction of eternal principles is Good -Truth -Beauty. Beauty is easier to generalise on than Good or Truth.
One doesn't need to understand what delights one, the radiance of beauty affects one without permission and undoubtedly penetrates to one's core. As to generalizing it's all biology. All meanings are affected by changes in one's biology. Yes, I know it sounds rather cold, but it is the process which gives us our reality. As long as there is biology the physical world will be provided with the meanings we need, Nihilism is a world without biology. The big question is, what is the meaning of life, it depends--lol! It depends on whether you identify with the body or the consciousness it contains, the body perishes, consciousness marches on. All words are qualifications and/or limitations, and as far as higher values go they are created in the self- interest of our common biology without which our finer sensibilities would go unrealized in the struggle to survive.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:18 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:07 pm

Belinda,

Yes, I think you have captured the essence of it. In a person's daily life if there are not high values and significant meanings values etc.. life would be simply an endurance.
I don't know about that Popeye. I find what matters most to me is small experiences. Those are difficult to assemble into a generality of any sort. The best I can do in the direction of eternal principles is Good -Truth -Beauty. Beauty is easier to generalise on than Good or Truth.
One doesn't need to understand what delights one, the radiance of beauty affects one without permission and undoubtedly penetrates to one's core. As to generalizing it's all biology. All meanings are affected by changes in one's biology. Yes, I know it sounds rather cold, but it is the process which gives us our reality. As long as there is biology the physical world will be provided with the meanings we need, Nihilism is a world without biology. The big question is, what is the meaning of life, it depends--lol! It depends on whether you identify with the body or the consciousness it contains, the body perishes, consciousness marches on. All words are qualifications and/or limitations, and as far as higher values go they are created in the self- interest of our common biology without which our finer sensibilities would go unrealized in the struggle to survive.
Belinda
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Re: nihilism

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:52 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:18 am

I don't know about that Popeye. I find what matters most to me is small experiences. Those are difficult to assemble into a generality of any sort. The best I can do in the direction of eternal principles is Good -Truth -Beauty. Beauty is easier to generalise on than Good or Truth.
One doesn't need to understand what delights one, the radiance of beauty affects one without permission and undoubtedly penetrates to one's core. As to generalizing it's all biology. All meanings are affected by changes in one's biology. Yes, I know it sounds rather cold, but it is the process which gives us our reality. As long as there is biology the physical world will be provided with the meanings we need, Nihilism is a world without biology. The big question is, what is the meaning of life, it depends--lol! It depends on whether you identify with the body or the consciousness it contains, the body perishes, consciousness marches on. All words are qualifications and/or limitations, and as far as higher values go they are created in the self- interest of our common biology without which our finer sensibilities would go unrealized in the struggle to survive.
I agree, with the reservation that the body is also experience. Unless the body is experience the body is nothing. I'd rather say "the material world vanishes ,experience marches on". Or "the baseless fabric of this vision -------melts into air into thin air".(The Tempest )
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