nihilism

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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

Post by iambiguous »

What Are the Five Theories of Nihilism?
Curated by TheCollector
Nihilism was a widespread school of philosophy that emerged during the 18th and 19th centuries throughout much of Europe and beyond. Conversationally we might talk about Nihilism as a gloomy, pessimistic school, whose leaders rejected the moralism of religion, instead believing in absolutely nothing and no-one.
Yes, conversationally, nihilism is often construe by many to be a particularly gloomy, pessimistic, cynical frame of mind. After all, in the absence of God [or His secular equivalent], what could possibly be gloomier than living in a world where all things [however horrifically construed by most] have already been rationalized by, among others, sociopaths.

Or, ironically enough, by the moral objectivists. Though here, of course, the Kingdom of Ends is used to rationalize "any means necessary". That's why the Nazis were deemed to be Good by some and Evil by others. The Final Solution is actually embraced by the True Believers as a moral crusade, but perhaps the death camps themselves went too far? Or fascism is rational, but it has nothing to do with the Jews?

On the other hand, conversationally, nihilism can also be embraced in a positive and constructive manner. One can argue that it frees us from the tyranny embedded in the One True Path mentality. A nihilist is not anchored to one or another religious or ideological or deontological set of prescriptions and proscriptions. He or she can instead champion "moderation, negotiation and compromise" as a more appealing political agenda.
1] Existential Nihilism

Existential Nihilism bears some similarities with the 19th and 20th century school of Existentialism, but the two are still markedly distinct from one another. Both schools rejected religion and other authoritarian forces that had once dominated the way we lived out our lives. Existential Nihilists gloomily thought that without any moral codes to hold us in place, human life was essentially meaningless and pointless. By contrast, the Existentialists thought the individual had the power to find their own meaningful path through the absurd complexity of life, but only if they are brave enough to go out looking for it.
Here the crucial focus often revolves around different interpretations of "authenticity". For the existentialist, this often pertains to the belief that "existence is prior to essence". You are thrown out into a particular world at birth and for years those around you are intent on indoctrinating you...brainwashing you [with the best of intentions] to embrace one or another set of moral and political and spiritual dictums. Whereas true authenticity comes about only in living your own individual life and choosing for yourself that which seems more or less authentic.

Okay, note some nihilists, but since there is no God or Plato or Kant around to guide you to the most rational and virtuous of behaviors, how does that not come to be embodied instead in the particular parameters of a particular life? You come to believe what you are predisposed to believe existentially and others come to completely conflicting assessments.

Then what?
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:44 am Nihilism is facing reality, for the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject.
Without a conscious subject there is no physical world. Veritas as proven this. I don't even need to link to a thread.
So, there is always meaning. And since there are objective morals, meanings, must also be objective.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:50 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:44 am Nihilism is facing reality, for the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject.
Without a conscious subject there is no physical world. Veritas as proven this. I don't even need to link to a thread.
So, there is always meaning. And since there are objective morals, meanings, must also be objective.
Meaning is never and cannot be objective. Our reality is subjective entirely.
Last edited by popeye1945 on Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:42 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:50 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:44 am Nihilism is facing reality, for the physical world is utterly meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject.
Without a conscious subject there is no physical world. Veritas as proven this. I don't even need to link to a thread.
So, there is always meaning. And since there are objective morals, meanings, must also be objective.
Meaning is never and cannot be objective. Our reality/meaning is subjective entirely.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:42 am Meaning is never and cannot be objective. Ourt reality is subjective entirely.
There is no other reality, again VA has proven this. Reality is subjective, therefore meaning is everywhere.
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:32 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:42 am Meaning is never and cannot be objective. Our reality is subjective entirely.
There is no other reality, again VA has proven this. Reality is subjective, therefore meaning is everywhere.
Biology is the measure and meaning of all things, there is meaning only for a conscious subject, meaning never belongs to the physical world. In the absence of a conscious subject, there is nothing. Meaning is bodily experience or how the body has been altered by the energies of the outer world/cosmos.
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Agent Smith
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Re: nihilism

Post by Agent Smith »

I can sense a complexity in the nihilistic worldview that would make a nihilist the most lovable character in a Shakespearean-style play about life and all its ups and downs.


"Who is that man? Why did he do what he just did?"

"What man? What did he do?"

"Never mind."
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:12 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:32 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:42 am Meaning is never and cannot be objective. Our reality is subjective entirely.
There is no other reality, again VA has proven this. Reality is subjective, therefore meaning is everywhere.
Biology is the measure and meaning of all things, there is meaning only for a conscious subject, meaning never belongs to the physical world. In the absence of a conscious subject, there is nothing. Meaning is bodily experience or how the body has been altered by the energies of the outer world/cosmos.
No one has experienced this so called physical world without the complete presence of the conscious subject. There is no physical without the presence of the conscious subject nor separate from it. So, the meaning of the conscious subject suffuses everything.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:12 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:32 am
There is no other reality, again VA has proven this. Reality is subjective, therefore meaning is everywhere.
Biology is the measure and meaning of all things, there is meaning only for a conscious subject, meaning never belongs to the physical world. In the absence of a conscious subject, there is nothing. Meaning is bodily experience or how the body has been altered by the energies of the outer world/cosmos.
No one has experienced this so called physical world without the complete presence of the conscious subject. There is no physical without the presence of the conscious subject nor separate from it. So, the meaning of the conscious subject suffuses everything.
You have not said anything I haven't already stated.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:22 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:20 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:12 am

Biology is the measure and meaning of all things, there is meaning only for a conscious subject, meaning never belongs to the physical world. In the absence of a conscious subject, there is nothing. Meaning is bodily experience or how the body has been altered by the energies of the outer world/cosmos.
No one has experienced this so called physical world without the complete presence of the conscious subject. There is no physical without the presence of the conscious subject nor separate from it. So, the meaning of the conscious subject suffuses everything.
You have not said anything I haven't already stated.
Yeah, I can't see why you draw the opposite, incorrect conclusion.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:36 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:22 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:20 am
No one has experienced this so called physical world without the complete presence of the conscious subject. There is no physical without the presence of the conscious subject nor separate from it. So, the meaning of the conscious subject suffuses everything.
You have not said anything I haven't already stated.
Yeah, I can't see why you draw the opposite, incorrect conclusion.
What conclusion is that?
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:37 am What conclusion is that?
there is meaning only for a conscious subject, meaning never belongs to the physical world.
You seem to have two worlds. There is no 'physical world'. There is an entangled subject/object, neither of which exists without the other, these are just terms of convenience. One world suffused with meaning. There's no separate 'phyiscal world' that has no meaning, or as you put it where 'meaning never belongs.'

You have this traditional dualism.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Just a misunderstanding. It is well known in philosophy that subject and object can never be separated, it is only done so in dialogue to understand their relationship to our apparent reality. You agree apparent reality is subjective, this comes about through the energies/objects in the outer world altering our biology/bodies through our senses which is experience. It is these effects which we call apparent reality, and it tells us more about our experience than it does about what causes the experiences. It is you could say a biological readout or a self-simulation, so our daily reality is as much dependent upon the outer energies as it is on the nature and health of the organism. So, it is my belief that objects are particular to biological consciousness, existing only for biological consciousness. Accepting this for the moment, we do not know if there are no other energy forms out there having their own personal apparent realities relative to their own natures, which would be somewhat different from our own. So no, no duality.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:39 am Just a misunderstanding. It is well known in philosophy that subject and object can never be separated
It's a postion some philosophers have. There are others. We have various realisms, idealisms, phenomenalisms, and more.
, it is only done so in dialogue to understand their relationship to our apparent reality.
'Apparent reality'?? So, you have two realities?
You agree apparent reality is subjective, this comes about through the energies/objects in the outer world altering our biology/bodies through our senses which is experience
More dualisms?
It is these effects which we call apparent reality,
Some people do. Unless the grammar of this sentences means you are representing a specific group. 'we'
and it tells us more about our experience than it does about what causes the experiences.
Other people are a part of what is the outer world for you, as an individual, yet here you are saying what is real and not real and what is apparent for us. You are giving a model of perception, with subjects objects and perception, and this also is a model you are including outer world stuff in, in part because you are including everyone in this.
It is you could say a biological readout or a self-simulation, so our daily reality is as much dependent upon the outer energies as it is on the nature and health of the organism. So, it is my belief that objects are particular to biological consciousness, existing only for biological consciousness. Accepting this for the moment, we do not know if there are no other energy forms out there having their own personal apparent realities relative to their own natures, which would be somewhat different from our own. So no, no duality.
Well, it sure sounds like a dualism - your apparent reality, the outer world we can't know anything about...perhaps even a triality with other minds out there in their own bubbles.
popeye1945
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Re: nihilism

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:14 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:39 am Just a misunderstanding. It is well known in philosophy that subject and object can never be separated
It's a postion some philosophers have. There are others. We have various realisms, idealisms, phenomenalisms, and more.
, it is only done so in dialogue to understand their relationship to our apparent reality.
'Apparent reality'?? So, you have two realities?
You agree apparent reality is subjective, this comes about through the energies/objects in the outer world altering our biology/bodies through our senses which is experience
More dualisms?
It is these effects which we call apparent reality,
Some people do. Unless the grammar of this sentences means you are representing a specific group. 'we'
and it tells us more about our experience than it does about what causes the experiences.
Other people are a part of what is the outer world for you, as an individual, yet here you are saying what is real and not real and what is apparent for us. You are giving a model of perception, with subjects objects and perception, and this also is a model you are including outer world stuff in, in part because you are including everyone in this.
It is you could say a biological readout or a self-simulation, so our daily reality is as much dependent upon the outer energies as it is on the nature and health of the organism. So, it is my belief that objects are particular to biological consciousness, existing only for biological consciousness. Accepting this for the moment, we do not know if there are no other energy forms out there having their own personal apparent realities relative to their own natures, which would be somewhat different from our own. So no, no duality.
Well, it sure sounds like a dualism - your apparent reality, the outer world we can't know anything about...perhaps even a triality with other minds out there in their own bubbles.
We could continue with this dialogue if out of all the faults who've chosen to underline, there was one inkling of understanding--- so basically, I am out of here.
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