nihilism

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Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:45 pm Thoroughgoing nihilism is incompatible with life. There is no such person as one who behaves as if there is no point in taking a breath when his carbon dioxide level is high.

Beliefs are not beliefs unless you want to act on them.
it depends what one means by nihilism, but I agree in general. If you say there is no point to life, but get out bed, try to accomplish things, make some kind of connections with people, there is at least a part of you that thinks there may be a point or there is one. We got thoughts in the head, but that's not the full list of beliefs.

Someone might respond that that isn't really them or it's the mechanisms of the body or some other not identifying. But hey, no physicalist can say that and, then also to other people it's just obvious that your story is incomplete.

Someone else might argue that they are just afraid of death, so they do things. But that's framing it in the negative to win a point. Some part wants life and achieves it, for a while.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

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Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:49 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:45 pm Thoroughgoing nihilism is incompatible with life. There is no such person as one who behaves as if there is no point in taking a breath when his carbon dioxide level is high.

Beliefs are not beliefs unless you want to act on them.
it depends what one means by nihilism, but I agree in general. If you say there is no point to life, but get out bed, try to accomplish things, make some kind of connections with people, there is at least a part of you that thinks there may be a point or there is one. We got thoughts in the head, but that's not the full list of beliefs.
The point here for many nihilists is in making a distinction between an essential meaning to life said to be applicable to everyone, and any particular existential meaning that each of us as individuals might give to it. The part I root in dasein.

Now, for those who claim there is an essential meaning to life, it will, as often as not, revolve around one or another God.

And, sure, there's no way for nihilists to demonstrate definitively that a God, the God, your God does not exist.

So, for nihilists like me, I try to bring that discussion around to this:

1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God or religious/spiritual path
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God or religious/spiritual path


Or, instead, if your essential meaning revolves more around a political ideology or a deontological philosophy of life -- a secular ism -- at least a discussion regarding point 2 and 3.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:06 pm The point here for many nihilists is in making a distinction between an essential meaning to life said to be applicable to everyone, and any particular existential meaning that each of us as individuals might give to it.
Sure, many nihilists will consider that the point. But they also need to admit the point both Belinda and I are making: they have come up with a personal meaning. And further, they can't really know if this is some form of a universal or objective meaning or not. Note: I am not arguing there is such a thing, I tend to doubt it. But at the very least, their own beliefs are likely mixed.
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

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Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:15 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:06 pm The point here for many nihilists is in making a distinction between an essential meaning to life said to be applicable to everyone, and any particular existential meaning that each of us as individuals might give to it.
Sure, many nihilists will consider that the point. But they also need to admit the point both Belinda and I are making: they have come up with a personal meaning.
Yes, I certainly agree with that. On the other hand, my own assumptions regarding "I" when this personal meaning comes around to moral and political and spiritual values in the is/ought world, revolve around the assumptions I make in the OPs of these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

And, in particular, the manner in which I explore human identity on this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34319

For those interested.
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:15 pmAnd further, they can't really know if this is some form of a universal or objective meaning or not. Note: I am not arguing there is such a thing, I tend to doubt it. But at the very least, their own beliefs are likely mixed.
True. At best all they can do is to at least attempt to demonstrate that what they believe to be true "in their head" others are obligated to believe in turn. If they wish to be thought of as rational human beings.

Also, the fact that I have thought myself into believing what I do about "I" in the is/ought No God world. A truly bleak and dismaying frame of mind at times.

So, I am always hoping that one day I'll come upon someone actually able to "yank" me up out of this grim hole that I have dug for myself philosophically.
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:00 pm So, I am always hoping that one day I'll come upon someone actually able to "yank" me up out of this grim hole that I have dug for myself philosophically.
Well, that would be lovely. I think the odds are much higher that behavioral/social/environmental changes will yank you out of a grim hole and would then also increase the chances that a philosophical perspective, different from your own, would be able to reach you. Increase the chances that you can actually be open to receiving something new philosophically.

Depressed states, grim holes, going round in the mind over the same ground...they tend to just swallow any thought that comes to them. They are thought machines and deal with even new thoughts as food for the same patterns.

And then added to or as an example of behavioral/social/environmental changes, therapy.

Though grim holes often find ways to dismiss any changes with predictions or philosphical underminings of the point of trying anything hew in advance.

I wish you the best.
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Re: nihilism

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Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:43 am
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:00 pm So, I am always hoping that one day I'll come upon someone actually able to "yank" me up out of this grim hole that I have dug for myself philosophically.
Well, that would be lovely. I think the odds are much higher that behavioral/social/environmental changes will yank you out of a grim hole and would then also increase the chances that a philosophical perspective, different from your own, would be able to reach you. Increase the chances that you can actually be open to receiving something new philosophically.

Depressed states, grim holes, going round in the mind over the same ground...they tend to just swallow any thought that comes to them. They are thought machines and deal with even new thoughts as food for the same patterns.

And then added to or as an example of behavioral/social/environmental changes, therapy.

Though grim holes often find ways to dismiss any changes with predictions or philosphical underminings of the point of trying anything hew in advance.

I wish you the best.
I can do it as a cognitive exercise, which is some help. What I do is presume good and truth exist , then find examples of good and truth scattered around. These narratives of good and truth can then be subjected to various tests of scientific accuracy and reliability.

Dasein is essential to the task of learning anything including what Dasein finds of good and truth. Learning is a social activity a result of the interactions of Daseins.

Dasein is dynamic.
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Re: nihilism

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Belinda wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:24 pm Dasein is dynamic.
One can aim at certain experiences and thus consciously change what one experiences and thus potentially affect what a particular life world is like, yes. If you think the world sucks and sucks to the core and spend your time looking at porn and websites where people only fume and read evening papers that focus on scaring and shocking this will likely not lead to much change in outlook. So, one can choose to do what you do and focus on certain things and then see if there are any shifts. We are not just passive (even if we are utterly determined). Our childhood came at us and to a greater degree we were passively going through its gauntlet of experience. As adults we have freer range. Of course damage in childhood may lead to difficulties making choices (again, regardless of whether it is a deterministic universe or a free will one). Even a cognitive choice to view learning or change as a matter of effort instead of talent can lead to more success.

The way one takes in information, evaluates an argument or option and learns is radically affected by mood. And you can wag the dog and take another look.
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:00 pm At best all [we] can do is to at least attempt to demonstrate that what [we] believe to be true "in [our[ head" others are obligated to believe in turn. If [we] wish to be thought of as rational human beings.

Also, the fact that I have thought myself into believing what I do about "I" in the is/ought No God world. A truly bleak and dismaying frame of mind at times.

So, I am always hoping that one day I'll come upon someone actually able to "yank" me up out of this grim hole that I have dug for myself philosophically.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:43 amWell, that would be lovely. I think the odds are much higher that behavioral/social/environmental changes will yank you out of a grim hole and would then also increase the chances that a philosophical perspective, different from your own, would be able to reach you. Increase the chances that you can actually be open to receiving something new philosophically.
Yes, that's probably true. On the other hand, those like me have been going to the grave now for thousands of years thinking that. The odds still seems rather remote.
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:43 amDepressed states, grim holes, going round in the mind over the same ground...they tend to just swallow any thought that comes to them.
Yes, but for most, this tends to revolve more around grim circumstances in their life. For me, it is an actual philosophical perspective. I see my life itself as essentially meaningless and purposeless. And getting closer and closer to oblivion. That's an entirely rational perspective for me given a No God world.
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Re: nihilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

iambiguous wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:43 pm Yes, that's probably true. On the other hand, those like me have been going to the grave now for thousands of years thinking that. The odds still seems rather remote.
Well 1) you might go to your grave in a slightly better mood over the coming years and 2) I'm not clear what the project here is. It seemed like you were hoping (skeptically) that someone would convince. If it's probably true the odds go up if behavioral etc. changes might lead to more openness, why not?
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:43 amDepressed states, grim holes, going round in the mind over the same ground...they tend to just swallow any thought that comes to them.
Yes, but for most, this tends to revolve more around grim circumstances in their life. For me, it is an actual philosophical perspective. I see my life itself as essentially meaningless and purposeless. And getting closer and closer to oblivion. That's an entirely rational perspective for me given a No God world.
Actually despressed states adn grim holes often have little to do with grim circumstances. And most depressed people have a philosophical perspective. Many don't articulate it in philosophy forums, but some definitely do. Man, some of the anti-natalists over at the Philosophy Forum find new angles for depressive thinking every day.

But you seem clear and in a sense content with your choices, so I'll bow out of this angle on Nihilism.
Belinda
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Re: nihilism

Post by Belinda »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:24 pm Dasein is dynamic.
One can aim at certain experiences and thus consciously change what one experiences and thus potentially affect what a particular life world is like, yes. If you think the world sucks and sucks to the core and spend your time looking at porn and websites where people only fume and read evening papers that focus on scaring and shocking this will likely not lead to much change in outlook. So, one can choose to do what you do and focus on certain things and then see if there are any shifts. We are not just passive (even if we are utterly determined). Our childhood came at us and to a greater degree we were passively going through its gauntlet of experience. As adults we have freer range. Of course damage in childhood may lead to difficulties making choices (again, regardless of whether it is a deterministic universe or a free will one). Even a cognitive choice to view learning or change as a matter of effort instead of talent can lead to more success.

The way one takes in information, evaluates an argument or option and learns is radically affected by mood. And you can wag the dog and take another look.
Change is integral to relativity, This is a relative world we live in and the kaleidoscope is constantly being shaken. Some Daseins are better able to survive changes than others. When a Dasein is unable to alter his circumstances he may be better off wasting his time in escapist entertainments. Certainly no Dasein is absolutely free , as the Free Will doctrine would claim, however reason makes any Dasein more free than a Dasein who lacks reason.

The more free more reasoning Dasein circumvents more obstacles, including moods, during his dialectical progress though his active life. An actual example of the more free Dasein is the Dasein who has undergone psychoanalysis and who knows the causes of his moods. Once the Dasein knows the most probable narrative he is more free to choose wisely.
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Re: nihilism

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Moral Nihilism as Reflected By Joker in The Dark Knight Movie.
by Satrio Jagad
I. NIHILISM THEORY
a. First state

Nietzsche in his book The Will to Power mentions that nihilism has to be reached first when individual has no meaning in his life.
No, not "no meaning" but meaning that is thought to be essentially, necessarily, objectively true. And not in regard to the either/or world, where that sort of meaning abounds, but in regard to what, in being meaningful to us, motivates our behaviors when interacting with others given conflicting moral and political values. Moral nihilism in other words. Which for me is derived from the assumption that we live in a No God world.
Nietzsche states the first stage “nihilism as a psychological state will have to be reached, first, when we have sought a 'meaning' in all events that is not there: so the seeker eventually becomes discouraged”.
Come on, how discouraged are you when the meaning revolves around those things that are in fact true for all of us. You become a part of an American football game. How many conflicts will pop up regarding what it means to play football. The rules of the game are well known. And you can always agree among yourselves on what if any changes you want to make to them.

No, the squabbles erupt around how as individuals we feel about the game itself. Or how we think about professional sports. Does the game promote values that appeal to us or not? Do we want our children to play the game or not? Is fútbol the far better sport?
As we can see, when someone realizes that he has no meaning of life anymore, the first stage is reached. Usually this state comes from a disappointment with society, God, or even himself.
Then to how "philosophical" you go with this.

This far?

"There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy."

Of course out in the real world most suicides revolve instead around the existential, circumstantial parameters of meaning in our lives. Around our health or our economic plight or a lost love or the death of someone near and dear to us.

The plight of Sisyphus doesn't often come up.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195600
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iambiguous
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Re: nihilism

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Thomas Nagel
The Absurd
Most people feel on occasion that life is absurd, and some feel it vividly and continually. Yet the reasons usually offered in defense of this conviction are patently inadequate: they could not really explain why life is absurd. Why then do they provide a natural expression for the sense that it is?
Who really knows how many people who are out there never really give much thought to this at all. If any thought at all.

They leave all that "meaning" stuff to God. Or they live lives bursting at the seams with personal relationships and accomplishments that truly preoccupy them from day to day to day. I've met my own fair share of men and women who at least seemed this way to me. Of course, what could I know about their innermost thoughts and feelings.

But it seemed clear that when they spoke of particular behaviors being absurd it wasn't meant in a philosophical sense but rather as a way to deride particular behaviors in particular sets of circumstances that they themselves though to be inane or foolish or entirely inappropriate.
Consider some examples. It is often remarked that nothing we do now will matter in a million years. But if that is true, then by the same token, nothing that will be the case in a million years matters now. In particular, it does not matter now that in a million years nothing we do now will matter. Moreover, even if what we did now were going to matter in a million years, how could that keep our present concerns from being absurd? If their mattering now is not enough to accomplish that, how would it help if they mattered a million years from now?
We'll need a context of course. And all of the many different ways in which it either will or will not be thought of as absurd. And, for those anchored to one or another God or No God transcending font, I is always subsumed in it. Time is irrelevant. Nothing matters except that we are able to convince ourselves that we are doing what we are doing because it is simply unthinkable that we would not be doing it. That's the whole point behind rituals. We do what we do over and over again because it is necessary that we do it. Doing it is precisely what it takes to convince us that life does have an essential meaning. Whether you're Christian or a Communist you are obligated to embody that meaning. Ever and always.

That's why the manner in which "I" construe dasein was so threatening to the many objectivists I've encountered over the year. You can only feel "fractured and fragmented" when you've convinced yourself that now or a million years from now everything we do is essentially meaningless and purposeless.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195600
Iwannaplato
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Re: nihilism

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Belinda wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:33 am Some Daseins are better able to survive changes than others. When a Dasein is unable to alter his circumstances he may be better off wasting his time in escapist entertainments.
I suppose that's possible, though mindful or meaningful (to that person) entertainment might be better. It might develop them to where they can make some changes - in small ways, sure, but better than nothing. I've had some film watching experiences where I got triggered into dealing with old shit and this freed up energy and gave me slightly altered perspectives.
Certainly no Dasein is absolutely free , as the Free Will doctrine would claim, however reason makes any Dasein more free than a Dasein who lacks reason.
Sure, reason is good. Though I think when we talk about holes and depression and meaninglessness, drive, passion, connection to others are more key to geting up and out.
The more free more reasoning Dasein circumvents more obstacles, including moods, during his dialectical progress though his active life.
I think often the facility of reasoning is a double edged sword. It can draw all sorts of false conclusions.
An actual example of the more free Dasein is the Dasein who has undergone psychoanalysis and who knows the causes of his moods. Once the Dasein knows the most probable narrative he is more free to choose wisely.
and... me being a fan of catharsis, if the old emotional patterns can be expressed fully instead of suppressed, one is more free to see what actually is possible.
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Re: nihilism

Post by Phil8659 »

No body can really understand nihilism, but only imagine they can, until one has experienced it as a real, hard, and unavoidable circumstance.

During the Vietnam war, my job was LLTV on the C130 gunships, I repaired them. That system could see anything in the dark. I always stopped off at the chow hall and ate before I got to the shop. On one particular day, something happened, I must have ate something that had got into the food. I collapsed in the latrine, and I knew I was dying. Everything was black, absolutely nothing had any meaning. I concentrated and looked deep into the darkness and thought about it, where does meaning come from? I knew, during that time, nothing in the whole of creation gave me the meaning, the will, to do anything at all. That it had to come from within. I was at peace with this, at peace being centered in myself. I expected nothing from any gods or men, it was all me, what did I mean, fuck the Universe, all meaning originates within. I decide what is of value, what the right thing to do is, and when one is dead, there is absolutely nothing. Did not matter. I was at peace with it all, even though it was the most terrifying time of my life. To loose all meaning is a terror nobody can imagine, I was sweating profusely, and yet, one must focus in in terror in order to think.
I eventually passed out. But I spent a long time, looking into the dark, in complete terror, yet calm.
Several hours pass by with me on the floor, in the latrine. Much to my surprise, I woke up. Washed my face, and went back to work.

Depression is not the same as the experience of nihilism. Nihilism effects terror, the likes of which is rare. Nihilism is a state where you are suddenly cut off from your own body, completely alone from it. In depression, you got a body, but cannot even figure out what to do with it.
When your mind is suddenly cut off from your body, there is no sensory input, your mind is receiving absolutely no meaning, nothing to process, no consequence of thought.
It is because very few ever experience it, that people confuse true Nihilism with depression. There is a huge difference. All meaning is suddenly taken from you in the one case, in the other, you are simply stalemated by your inability to solve a problem.

One state is imposed by the environment, the other by ones own ability to choose.

One can go off on a tangent, and say things like working on classified equipment in a foreign country, people get killed in a number of ways, but when you try to poison someone, better make sure you know if that person is going to die, or just get over it. Whatever I was hit with was definitely not food poisoning. Food poisoning is very messy, and you find stuff coming out both ends at the same time. I suspect it was some type of nerve agent because I was suddenly and completely disconnected from any ability to sense anything at all. Or it could have been a paralytic commonly used by some insects. I just do not know.

Being suddenly cut off from all sound, sight, feeling of any kind, puts you in a state where there is no meaning afforded you by your own body and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. But if you train your mind, train yourself, as I had done, but never expecting to actually need it, you learn things about yourself that mind training cannot teach you. A simulation, by practicing separating body from mind is only that. The real thing adds terror.

This is not the first time I should have died. The first time was when I was a kid. I had, previous fallen from the top bunk on to a cement floor and landed on my head. It not only compressed vertebrae, it apparently caused a blood clot which in time, migrated to my heart. It got stuck in a valve. In short, I ended up having a heart attack. Things just started to stop working. And it is true, your left arm goes first, then your legs, and it moves up to your lungs. You do not fight for breath, suddenly you just cannot breath. Its gone. As I was passing out, I just thought to myself, well fuck it, looks like it is time to die. No problem, if you cannot beat it, why bother? anyway just as I was passing out, the clot cleared the valve. The damage to the valve took several years to heal, but it finally did. At that time, I knew what was happening, and as it was unavoidable, that was just what it was. It is not sudden, however, things slowly stop working, and you can figure out why.

Another time, I died as a kid, was in a public swimming pool. I kept swimming across the pool until my body just gave up. My brother and a life guard brought me back, but it was really weird walking home and the water sloshing in my stomach.

Dying is not hard, living is hard. As the old Greek Quote goes, Hard is the Good. So, some people can look back on their life, remembering how many times they should have died, and mind you, if have not even told you the strangest ones, that stories of Rasputin are not at all interesting.

The strangest time I should have died, put me into a state of cognitive dissonance for decades because, what saved my life, was definitely not even human. Why in the hell would a superior intelligence, even think about saving my life? I can only guess, but guesses are pointless. I can tell you this, the speed at which they think one cannot even imagine. To me, it appeared as if time had stopped. I knew we cannot possibly think as fast as I was experiencing. At any rate, I eventually discovered how. Analog Information Processing, Look at my work in geometry, everything happens at once, out put is concurrent with input. No digital computer can match the speed of information processing I have shown the world in my work.
My work shows how what mankind calls Gods, can process information faster than the speed of light, because time is not even involved in the computation. Results is concurrent with input.

You speak of Nihilism, a state of complete meaninglessness and terror, but because of it, I was driven to learn how what men call gods make our ability to think as being provably inferior in every way. My work in Geometry, shows what normal people cannot even imagine. Information processing independent of time itself. We are evolving to become that supercomputer.

And that is why I laugh at all those who swear that they have encountered aliens while describing those aliens with an intelligence, and reasoning power no better than man, they do not even imagine what real aliens are like or how they think. These people are simply delusional. They are to be pitied. And governments use this bull shit to their advantage to manage fools with. But real aliens would only interact with humans, very rarely and only because their project of cultivating life requires it. They do not chat with anybody.

My very first attempt to join a NASA website, got me permanently banned for life, because my intro essay was about the difference in ability to process information between them and us, and I pointed to my work in geometry proving it.
There are people who know, but there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. They still attempt to use myths to manage people with, because the truth is completely beyond their ability. And it may be, that I was also banned by both YouTube and Google because my programs were about grammar and information management. Many people do not have the ability to see the consequences, and many corporations just want to bury it all under a rug, afraid of what is really out there.

Stupid people do all in their power to try and stop evolution, stop learning, because they know, in the face of truth, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop it being revealed over time.

We are a mind, and at this point in our evolution, a very inferior one. All a mind can do is read, process and write with the whole body. True prophets, true philosophers, have always targeted man's ability to read, process, and write. And, the sociopathic who are more clever than the average man has always had a parasitical relationship with the fools.

The meaning of our life has always been biologically defined. It is not a choice, nor a doctrine or theory. We, as mind, are simply one of the life support systems of a living organism. As such we have a well-defined biologically determined job to perform, and well-defined physically determined means of doing that job. Low level intelligence cannot grasp this idea because it is not possible for them. This does not mean that stupid is a standard by which meaning can be chosen.
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Re: nihilism

Post by FrankGSterleJr »

Many people to this day have great difficulty accepting, or even caring, that Lewis Carroll had little girls pose nude for his camera. ... A few years ago, I asked four peers whether they were aware of this rather unorthodox photography hobby enjoyed by Carroll, penname of Reverend Charles Lutwidge Dodgson. All four had no idea. One, though, became agitatedly apologetic and diversionary in her defense of the author: “So what? Woody Allen had sex with his [teenaged adopted] daughter!” Another peer replied similarly.

Astounded, I felt sure they would not be so dismissive had they viewed just a few of the many shots of unnaturally seductive poses involving small child subjects. (The ones I saw left me disgusted.) Again, it seems few know or care about the real Lewis Carroll. ... Acclaimed writer and commentator Will Self stated the conundrum thus: “It’s a problem, isn’t it, when somebody writes a great book but they’re not a great person.”

Some big-celebrity fans will continue consuming and defending their favorites nonetheless, while others may indefinitely remain in denial, as superstardom’s brightness can be blinding — especially when the product becomes legendary.

Retired Temple University English professor emeritus Donald Rackin stated in a Great Books documentary (a copy of which I own and watched many times to accurately record comments and information): “[Carroll] would ask mama if it was alright for him to photograph the little girl; and later on he would ask if he could photograph her in a costume; and eventually he would work his way up like a lover to, if he could photograph the child in the nude. We know that of course he was refused sometimes, but it was astounding how many mothers said, ‘go ahead’.”

So, should the nude child photography be disregarded because of Carroll’s brilliance? To me, that is basically what it amounts to. ... I find it troubling how many experts and non-experts/fans still apologetically come to Carroll’s defense on this matter, as though his literary greatness still merits in contemporary times a blind eye on those unacceptable photographs.

Had it been just some relative-nobody hobby photographer, and not Carroll, the relative-nobody undoubtedly would have been severely reprimanded, and rightly so, if not thrown into a Victorian-era prison. And no one meaningful would have defended him, let alone vociferously so.
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