philosophy and death

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

It was in February of 2020 that I wrote the introduction to a series of interviews that I would subsequently conduct for The Times’s philosophy series The Stone, called Conversations on Death, with religious scholars from a variety of faiths. While my initial aim had little to do with grappling with the deaths caused by Covid-19 (like most, I had no idea just how devastating the disease would be), it soon became hard to ignore. As the interviews appeared, I heard from readers who said that reading them helped them cope with their losses during the pandemic. I would like to think that it was partly the probing of the meaning of death, the refusal to look away, that was helpful. What had begun as a philosophical inquiry became a balm for some.

A balm for some. But not for others. In part, I suspect, that depends on the extent to which someone is able to approach their own death in a "philosophical manner". If you can acquire something in the way of "wisdom" in regard to your own death, that might be all it takes. At least until you are eyeball to eyeball with oblivion itself. Then I suspect the "existential parameters" of your life are more likely to take over. Are you able to believe in God...in immortality and salvation? Do you live with little left in your life that actually fulfills you? Do you, in fact, have considerably more things that bring you pain and suffering?

What covid does however is to bring death in a lot closer for more and more of us. Real death in other words. And though some are able to take comfort in philosophy then, I would certainly not consider myself one of them. For me, philosophically, everything comes back to dasein here. My life, my predispositions in contemplating my own demise.

While each scholar articulated a different interpretation of what happens after we die, it was not long before our conversations on death turned to matters of life, on the importance of what we do on this side of the grave. Death is loss, each scholar seemed to say, but it also illuminates and transforms life and serves as a guide for the living.

This is always my own main focus as well. We can speculate about what happens to us when we die, but ultimately that will take many of us to pondering the life that we live on this side of the grave. Wondering if there is a connection between what we do "here and now" and what the fate of "I" is "there and then". For most, that will revolve around God and religion. But what of those that are not inclined to believe in a "soul" or a "spiritual" path?

Here there's no telling what any particular individual might come up with in connecting those "ultimate" dots.


FYI: Here is the thread I created at ILP to explore philosophy and death: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=195614

[Lacewing]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

While each scholar articulated a different interpretation of what happens after we die, it was not long before our conversations on death turned to matters of life, on the importance of what we do on this side of the grave. Death is loss, each scholar seemed to say, but it also illuminates and transforms life and serves as a guide for the living.

This is always my own main focus as well. We can speculate about what happens to us when we die, but ultimately that will take many of us to pondering the life that we live on this side of the grave. Wondering if there is a connection between what we do "here and now" and what the fate of "I" is "there and then". For most, that will revolve around God and religion. But what of those that are not inclined to believe in a "soul" or a "spiritual" path?

Here there's no telling what any particular individual might come up with in connecting those "ultimate" dots.

Yes. From my own experience and reflections, these moments of life are the gift to use and appreciate. It's like being handed a gem with prisms of vast potential that are not limited to a static projection on a screen. One can weave beautiful creations with the many-colored threads and patterns, over and over throughout life. It does not stop reflecting potential, so the creative possibilities need not end. Repositioning oneself in the landscape, utilizing sources of light, to reflect even more. How can I not feel love and gratitude for such a gift while I am able to use it in such a way?

Whether we frame that within anything 'beyond life' is still part of this life experience and story. I do not see a need to do that: Connection is present -- there is no tragedy of separation.

I've written before about my near-death experience. The circumstances of it aren't really important. Rather, the impression of it is what has stayed with me. Precise words for describing it are difficult, but essentially, 'I' was no longer a separate identity, rather, simply awareness (like being in a vast space of no stars) without any human thoughts or needs or fears. It might be hard as a human to imagine such a state. It was completely peaceful and without any judgement or consequence. It made no difference whatsoever whether that awareness returned to that 'life' -- it would simply be determined by whether 'the humans' saved that body.

That experience reaffirmed for me that there is no need for all of our human ideas to be superimposed beyond the human world. And it makes no sense (to me) that there would be a god that does so! It's a fabrication by humans who impose their limited way of thinking and their needs and fears onto everything, which is just what they do. They rule and condemn themselves with it. Nobody else is doing that.

When I hear of people dying, I'm reminded of the opportunity we all have to enjoy and utilize the gift of life in this form... so it inspires me to continue further. I am not afraid of dying because I've felt what it's like not to have all of the human ideas and limitations, and it's fine!

[promethean75]

"I am not afraid of dying because I've felt what it's like not to have all of the human ideas and limitations, and it's fine!"

See my formula is a little different. My desire to stay alive decreases in proportion to the increase in the quality of lameness the world takes. So, the lamer the world gets, the less I care about staying alive.

Right? The whole thing about dying too soon was 'damn I don't wanna miss anything good'... but then when you realize nuthin good is gonna happen, yer like fuck this what am I waiting for? What with all the fun things you opt not to do because you wanna 'be careful'... all you end up doing is staying lamer for longer.

I agree with Fritz. Build your cities at the base of Vesuvius.

[Lacewing]

I am not afraid of dying because I've felt what it's like not to have all of the human ideas and limitations, and it's fine!

See my formula is a little different. My desire to stay alive decreases in proportion to the increase in the quality of lameness the world takes. So, the lamer the world gets, the less I care about staying alive.

Understood.

I'll dance while I can, and when I can do so no more, I'll say 'Thanks' to life and let it go.

The lameness of the world gets to me too. I'll just add, I think there's value in being able to shift perspectives. What's unmanageable from one perspective can become inconsequential (or at least less so) from another perspective. So, I wonder if the craziness of the world is an opportunity to practice and develop new ways of seeing/thinking that make us more resilient and effective. Some days I'm up for it... other days I take a break.

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

While each scholar articulated a different interpretation of what happens after we die, it was not long before our conversations on death turned to matters of life, on the importance of what we do on this side of the grave. Death is loss, each scholar seemed to say, but it also illuminates and transforms life and serves as a guide for the living.

This is always my own main focus as well. We can speculate about what happens to us when we die, but ultimately that will take many of us to pondering the life that we live on this side of the grave. Wondering if there is a connection between what we do "here and now" and what the fate of "I" is "there and then". For most, that will revolve around God and religion. But what of those that are not inclined to believe in a "soul" or a "spiritual" path?

Here there's no telling what any particular individual might come up with in connecting those "ultimate" dots.

Yes. From my own experience and reflections, these moments of life are the gift to use and appreciate. It's like being handed a gem with prisms of vast potential that are not limited to a static projection on a screen. One can weave beautiful creations with the many-colored threads and patterns, over and over throughout life. It does not stop reflecting potential, so the creative possibilities need not end. Repositioning oneself in the landscape, utilizing sources of light, to reflect even more. How can I not feel love and gratitude for such a gift while I am able to use it in such a way?

Whether we frame that within anything 'beyond life' is still part of this life experience and story. I do not see a need to do that: Connection is present -- there is no tragedy of separation.

I've written before about my near-death experience. The circumstances of it aren't really important. Rather, the impression of it is what has stayed with me. Precise words for describing it are difficult, but essentially, 'I' was no longer a separate identity, rather, simply awareness (like being in a vast space of no stars) without any human thoughts or needs or fears. It might be hard as a human to imagine such a state. It was completely peaceful and without any judgement or consequence. It made no difference whatsoever whether that awareness returned to that 'life' -- it would simply be determined by whether 'the humans' saved that body.

That experience reaffirmed for me that there is no need for all of our human ideas to be superimposed beyond the human world. And it makes no sense (to me) that there would be a god that does so! It's a fabrication by humans who impose their limited way of thinking and their needs and fears onto everything, which is just what they do. They rule and condemn themselves with it. Nobody else is doing that.

When I hear of people dying, I'm reminded of the opportunity we all have to enjoy and utilize the gift of life in this form... so it inspires me to continue further. I am not afraid of dying because I've felt what it's like not to have all of the human ideas and limitations, and it's fine!

Here, of course, our own individual reactions to death will tend to revolve around two crucial factors:

1] personal experiences
2] options

With the first, it often comes down to that which you are able to successfully communicate to others. Also, the extent to which you can bring that experience into a philosophy forum and through it bring others to a more "objective" assessment of death and dying. If it's not an experience you are able to communicate such that others might then replicate it, it will no doubt just remain an intensely personal experience. It's meaningful to you, but, "for all practical purposes" ineffable to others.

With the second, whatever your "philosophical" or "spiritual" thoughts and feelings are in regard to connecting the dots between living and dying, life and death, if you run out of options to sustain a fulfilling life on this this side of the grave, you may find yourself actually choosing to end your life.

We all have our "breaking point".

That's why one's capacity to believe in God and immortality and salvation can become so crucial. I once did, don't now, but, sure, with oblivion itself on the horizon, would like to again.

But: that is only because "here and now" my life is still filled with any number of satisfying pursuits. Take that away, and it's another think altogether.

God or No God.

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

The Buddhist scholar Dadul Namgyal stressed the importance of letting go of habits of self-obsession and attitudes of self-importance. Moulie Vidas, a scholar of Judaism, placed more emphasis on Judaism’s intellectual and spiritual energy. Karen Teel, a Roman Catholic, highlighted her interest in working toward making our world more just. The Jainism scholar Pankaj Jain underscored that it is on this side of the veil of death that one attempts to completely purify the soul through absolute nonviolence.

Brook Ziporyn, a scholar of Taoism, stressed the importance of embracing this life as constant change, being able to let go, of allowing, as he says, every new situation to “deliver to us its own new form as a new good.” Leor Halevi, a historian of Islam, told me that an imam would stress the importance of paying debts, giving to charity and prayer.

Yes, you can go right down the line, one denomination at a time. "Spiritual" advice regarding how to live and how to die. And, of course, how to intertwine them so as to sustain the most comforting and consoling peace of mind. And who would deny that for millions one path or another has provided a crucial foundation that makes both living and dying more bearable.

Then the part where God and religion are really the only possible choices available in regard to both objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side.

Instead, all I can note is that these paths are no longer within my own reach. As soon as discussions of God and religion pop up, I go here:

1] the need for demonstrable proof of the existence of a God, the God; or for the No God folks, a demonstrable proof of what they construe to be an "enlightened" frame of mind
2] the realization that hundreds spiritual paths to immortality and salvation exist...only one of which [if any] can be the true path; why yours and not theirs?
3] the assumption that dasein plays a vital role in any particular individual's religious faith
4] the brutal reality of theodicy

Either those on a spiritual/religious path are able to provide me with persuasive arguments in regard to my inability to believe again...or they aren't.

While acknowledging that my inability to believe may well be attributable to my own failure to grasp arguments that are in fact more reasonable than mine.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195614

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

The sheer variety of these insights [into death] raised the possibility that there are no absolute answers — the questions are “too complex” — and that life, as William Shakespeare’s Macbeth says, is “a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Yet there is so much to learn, paradoxically, about what is unknowable.

Of course, here we are discussing the path almost all of us take: birth, school, work, death. But how to encompass that vast eternity before we were born and after we die? How can it not be unknowable unless, given the existence of God, there is a transcending entity able to tie it all together. Which, in part, explains why so many of them have been invented. After all, what else is there that would allow us to grasp anything at all about...eternities.

Thus, in the absence of God, the question isn't what do we have to learn about death and beyond, but what we may never be able to learn about it.

Perhaps we should think of death in terms of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Just as the blind men who come to know the elephant by touching only certain parts of it, our views of death, religious or not, are limited, marked by context, culture, explicit and implicit metaphysical sensibilities, values and vocabularies. The elephant evades full description. But with death, there doesn’t seem to be anything to touch. There is just the fact that we die.

In a word: dasein.

Only, indeed, death is no elephant. An elephant is there to be seen by those not blind. To be described fully. To be studied and understood considerably just by Googling "Elephant". And even those blind touching it in certain parts and coming to different conclusions can be guided to the other parts in order to get a more complete "view". And they have technology today that permit them to Google it too.

Death on the other hand...how do we go about touching all of its parts? Death itself, sure. Nothing among the living that we are aware of has not died. But then what? And with elephants we don't find ourselves pondering such things as immortality, salvation, oblivion, nothingness.

We don't invent Gods with elephants in order to make death = oblivion go away.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195614

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

...as human beings, we yearn to make sense of that about which we may not be able to capture in full. In this case, perhaps each religious worldview touches something or is touched by something beyond the grave, something that is beyond our descriptive limits.

Here of course everyone will come to draw different lines. If we can't capture death "in full" when does making sense of it reach the point of incredulity. When does what we make sense of it start to revolve more and more around what we want to be true about it? What comforts and consoles us psychologically to believe about it. And the role the subconscious and unconscious mind plays in it. Perhaps even all the way to determinism itself.

For example...

Perhaps, for me, it is just too hard to let go, and so I refuse to accept that there is nothing after death. This attachment, which can function as a form of refusal, is familiar to all of us.

The point -- my point -- being this: that there are so many complex existential variables entangled in "I" here [going back to the cradle and then all the way to the grave] that it is all but impossible for any of us to untangle them, put them in the right order, and fully grasp why we think about death [or life itself] as we do. In so many ineffable ways we are hard-wired with the "will to live". And while "circumstances" can reconfigure that into the "will to die" for some us, most of us do what we can to rationalize death away. God and religion by and large. But for others it is bearing children or creating a life such that even after we are gone we will still be remembered.

The recent death of my dear friend bell hooks painfully demonstrates this. Why would I want to let go of our wonderful and caring relationship and our stimulating and witty conversations? I’m reminded, though, that my father’s last words regarding the meaning of death being too complex leave me facing a beautiful question mark.

This worked for him. Something else might work for you. Or, like me, you are unable to imagine anything that will work. It's oblivion all the way down.

What becomes futile though [for me] is in imagining we can ever truly grasp another's attempt to explain either their own life or death. We would have to have been them and lived their life to accomplish this. It's just that for some of us we come to recognize the futility even in regard to ourselves.


https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195614

[iambiguous]

What I Learned About Death From 7 Religious Scholars, 1 Atheist and My Father
George Yancy in the NYT

My father was also a lover of Kahlil Gibran’s “The Prophet.” He would quote sections from it verbatim. I wasn’t there when my father stopped breathing, but I wish that I could have spoken these lines by Gibran as he left us: “And what is it to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?”

Talk about a "general description spiritual contraption"!

On the other hand, who am I kidding. There are those who are in fact able to think themselves into taking thoughts like this very seriously. And, in so doing, are able to take the comfort and the consolation that they bring them all the way to the grave.

So, I recognize immediately that my own at times sneering reaction to them is just me lashing out at those who are able to do this when I myself am not. I envy them for sustaining "all the way" a frame of mind I lost myself "along the way".

In this past year of profound loss and grief, it is hard to find comfort. No matter how many philosophers or theologians seek the answers, the meaning of death remains a mystery. And yet silence in the face of this mystery is not an option for me, as it wasn’t for my father, perhaps because we know that, while we may find solace in our rituals, it is also in the seeking that we must persist.

The bottom line of course.

Here we all are confronted with what may well turn out to be oblivion. For a few, the good news. But, for most, the scariest news of all. We just don't know. So, each of us as individuals have come to our own existential reaction to it. We persist in seeking because we are really left with no choice. Other than in distractions. But the closer you get to the potential for oblivion [if it's not something you welcome] the less the distractions will work.

Which I suppose is why I go in search of an argument that might convince me that oblivion is not the most likely outcome. Nothing much so far though.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195614

[iambiguous]

When Faced With Death, People Often Change Their Minds
Daniela J. Lamas, a critical-care physician in the NYT

My patient had done everything possible to avoid being intubated. After a traumatic hospitalization when she was young, she had consistently told her loved ones that she would never again agree to a breathing tube. She had even filled out an advance directive years ago to formalize that decision.

But when she arrived in the emergency department one night this past spring with severe pneumonia, struggling to breathe, the doctors called her husband with a question. Should they intubate? If they didn’t, she would likely die.

He hesitated. Was this really the scenario that his wife, now in her late 60s, was imagining when she told him that she didn’t want a breathing tube? He could not ask her now, and faced with this impossible choice, he gave the team the OK. She was intubated and sedated and transferred to our intensive care unit later that night.

I believed this to be a failure of our health care system: A patient was in exactly the scenario she had long wished to avoid. When I stood at her bedside, I murmured an apology.

That's basically how these life and death dramas unfold. Each of us as individuals having had our own set of experiences and being sustained by our own beliefs about what our fate might be on the other side of our own mortality, will make decisions that others will either understand or not understand. And will either agree with or shake our heads in disbelief regarding.

So, what is the "right thing to do"?

Is it this:

After several days, the medical team gathered her family to make a plan. We would continue to treat her pneumonia and try to take her off the breathing tube. Based on our understanding of her prior wishes, we would not put the tube back in once we had taken it out. We would also not consider a tracheotomy, a procedure in which doctors cut a hole in the windpipe to help with breathing for patients who need a longer-term connection to a ventilator. Instead, if she could not breathe on her own, we would focus on her comfort, knowing that she would die. This was what she would have chosen. Or so I thought.

Turns out, it was not what she would have chosen after all:

When she was finally awake and off the breathing tube, the team told her what had happened. I assumed that she might feel betrayed by the decisions that had been made for her. But she surprised me. She said she would choose to be intubated again, and even undergo a tracheotomy, if it meant more time with her family.

There is confronting death "in your head" when you are not about to literally tumble over into the abyss, and there is confronting it when the Grim Reaper is right there eyeball to eyeball with you.

For me, of course, this is all rooted existentially in dasein. People do things "at the end" that others cannot imagine doing themselves. Including suicide and assisted suicide.

And, in large part, this will revolve around what you have been able to think yourself into believing [or have been indoctrinated into believing by others] about "the other side". If you genuinely believe that your death brings into the arms of your "heavenly Father", how can that not make the experience of death and dying more endurable. Even comforting.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195614