Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Related to this post,
viewtopic.php?p=556914#p556914
here is the question re 'Chattel Slavery"
Where did 'your own Private Internal Moral Laws [which happen to to be same as others] that detested and refrained oneself from chattel slavery within you arise from?
  • Slavery is a loose term and I deliberately specified my point related to slavery is confined to 'chattel' slavery only in this case.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
    In the long term, all forms of slavery must be abolished legally by all sovereign nations, but what is most critical is, subsequently in the future, slavery must be spontaneously taken as morally wrong by each individual voluntarily -as their private personal law internally- and as such any external laws of on slavery will lose their significance.

    I am sure you [& many] understand that from personal experience, i.e. one do not need to rely on external laws to tell or deter them that slavery is wrong.
    In this case, you (& the many] has their own private internal laws that reflect chattel slavery [& other forms of slavery] is wrong, i.e. morally, despite your God not condemning slavery explicitly.

    So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?
popeye1945
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by popeye1945 »

Life lives upon life, starting point, how do we get from the violence of necessity the killer instinct called hunger to a place of compassion through which morality does arise. When the necessities of life become scarce so does that thin paint job called morality/civilization become thin. The reality is inescapable, morality is totally dependent upon keeping at bay the will to survive through killing and consumption, we revert back to struggle in the face of which morality fades into the background. Where does morality come from when we have this respite from need and necessity/food, it comes from recognition, recognition that the self in you is the self in all life forms, forms like yourself that have the ability to experience suffering and joy. Morality is not solely the property of humanity, one can see it in nature in every special moments where the beast displays compassion for a fellow creature --it does occur but only on a full stomach. I remember a story about Schopenhuare when he asks, when someone riskes their own life to save another, defying the first principle of survival, what is happening? Schopenhaure says it automatic a metaphysical realization you and the other are one, or as the Upanishads state, this am I. To say the least, it is something to ponder in the face of how harsh the world is, where all life lives on the lives of other creatures.
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

Where did 'your own Private Internal Moral Laws [which happen to to be same as others] that detested and refrained oneself from chattel slavery within you arise from?

As I say: each person has this intuition of self-possession.No one naturally goes thru life thinkin' or feelin' as though they're the property of another. No one has ever said yep, today's the day I'm gonna find me a master! or boy, I can't wait to get started servin' my owner!.

As I say (most recently to a schmuck): it doesn't matter if this intuition is God-given or just a peculiar twist on the self-preservation drive. No one wants to be a slave (or be murdered, or robbed, or raped). Every one believes he is free, or meant to be free.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:22 am So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?[/list]
So you're still fooling yourself that slavery is over?

And now you think everybody has a "private internal moral law" against it? That would make it hard to understand why chattel slavery has been one of the oldest and most durable institutions in human history, but carry on....
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:22 am So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?[/list]
So you're still fooling yourself that slavery is over?

And now you think *everybody has a "private internal moral law" against it? That would make it hard to understand why chattel slavery has been one of the oldest and most durable institutions in human history, but carry on....
*they do...as I say, even the slaver, as he prices people for the auction, doesn't want to be, doesn't think he should be, a slave...the problem is not a lack of private internal moral law or intuition of self-possession; it's that some willfully choose not to recognize the other guy has the same intuition of self-possession (or the same right to himself)
Impenitent
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Impenitent »

private internal moral laws arise from the spleen

then again...

-Imp
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:52 pm private internal moral laws arise from the spleen

-Imp
Only if the pineal is calcified.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:22 am So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?[/list]
So you're still fooling yourself that slavery is over?

And now you think *everybody has a "private internal moral law" against it? That would make it hard to understand why chattel slavery has been one of the oldest and most durable institutions in human history, but carry on....
*they do...as I say, even the slaver, as he prices people for the auction, doesn't want to be, doesn't think he should be, a slave...the problem is not a lack of private internal moral law or intuition of self-possession; it's that some willfully choose not to recognize the other guy has the same intuition of self-possession (or the same right to himself)
I don't have a disagreement with what you think, Henry. I don't understand why VA thinks what VA thinks.
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:58 pm I don't have a disagreement with what you think, Henry.
I know.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:22 am So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?[/list]
So you're still fooling yourself that slavery is over?
You are very desperate to push the above point due to ignorance and the hindrance of your religiosity to think and rationalize for yourself.
Where in this forum have I ever claimed slavery [even chattel slavery] is over?
And now you think everybody has a "private internal moral law" against it? That would make it hard to understand why chattel slavery has been one of the oldest and most durable institutions in human history, but carry on....
What I have been claiming is ALL and every human has been "programmed" with a moral POTENTIAL which include the distaste for chattel slavery.
Note what is critical is the term "POTENTIAL."

The point is this POTENTIAL for morality [i.e. no slavery] is not fully realized in all human then and now, but rather its realization is spread over a continuum within the whole of humanity over time. Note the Normal Distribution applies in this case. This distribution against slavery has been shifting since 10,000 years ago to the present.

As such, at present, we may have 2% of humans who are highly morally attuned against slavery, while say 10% may be inclined to be slavers, 10% still agree with slavery while the majority are against slavery in general.

The progress to date is that all nations are present has laws where chattel slavery is illegal as compared to 100 years ago where there where no such laws.
This is a progress you cannot deny.
This is evidence the internal moral potential against slavery is slowly unfolding within humanity.

Note the evidence for the inherent moral potential within humanity;
  • Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom:
    It [Morality] is something we are all born with.
    At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
    It is from these beginnings, he argues in his new book Just Babies, that adults develop their sense of right and wrong, their desire to do good — and, at times, their capacity to do terrible things.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/#
Even monkeys has some internal compass for morality, note,
Haven't you seen this experiment??
It is very evident that 95% of humans i.e. 7.6 billion out of 8.0 billion at present do not want to enslave others nor want to be enslaved by others, to kill, to rape, to murder.
But unfortunately the reality is, we still have about 5% i.e. 400 millions :shock: who are on the extreme and have various degrees of inclinations for slavery, murder, rapes and other serious evil acts, despite despite existing deterrent laws against these evil acts.

As usual I anticipate you will ignore my above argument-with-evidence due to your desperate need for consonance and your religious dogma that keeping your your rational mind closed tight.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:16 pm Life lives upon life, starting point, how do we get from the violence of necessity the killer instinct called hunger to a place of compassion through which morality does arise. When the necessities of life become scarce so does that thin paint job called morality/civilization become thin. The reality is inescapable, morality is totally dependent upon keeping at bay the will to survive through killing and consumption, we revert back to struggle in the face of which morality fades into the background. Where does morality come from when we have this respite from need and necessity/food, it comes from recognition, recognition that the self in you is the self in all life forms, forms like yourself that have the ability to experience suffering and joy. Morality is not solely the property of humanity, one can see it in nature in every special moments where the beast displays compassion for a fellow creature --it does occur but only on a full stomach. I remember a story about Schopenhuare when he asks, when someone riskes their own life to save another, defying the first principle of survival, what is happening? Schopenhaure says it automatic a metaphysical realization you and the other are one, or as the Upanishads state, this am I. To say the least, it is something to ponder in the face of how harsh the world is, where all life lives on the lives of other creatures.
Noted your point above.

All humans are programmed with the POTENTIAL for Good [morality] and Evil.
However since 200,000 years ago the evil potential has been dominating until recently where the potential for Good & Morality has been slowly unfolding as evident by the points I argued above.

However note my point re continuum and normal distribution.
Thus it is true there is a small percentile of humans who are extremely morally-driven but this need not be good if not applied rationally. This is where you get a group of men killed in stormy sea trying to save a little drowning dog.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:25 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:22 am So you need to ask, where did this private internal Moral laws [not from your God] and similar with others that detested chattel slavery within you/them arise from?[/list]
So you're still fooling yourself that slavery is over?
You are very desperate to push the above point due to ignorance and the hindrance of your religiosity to think and rationalize for yourself.
Where in this forum have I ever claimed slavery [even chattel slavery] is over?
Not "over," of course. But you think slavery is reducing worldwide, and people are getting a kind of universal good conscience about them that is preventing them from doing it, whereas the statistics I've repeatedly provided you clearly show that slavery is not disappearing, and we are not doing better with it than we were before, but rather worse, with nastier, darker types of slavery than the American South ever knew.

Still, you just ignore that, say it's not "chattel" so it can't be so bad, and then you carry on with polyannish confidence. That's the story so far, anyway.
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

we are not doing better with it than we were before

Overall, we are.

The estimate is 40 million folks, today, are slaved. Let's be really liberal about it and bump that estimate up to 100 million. 100 million folks slaved is about 1.25% of almost the 8 billion folks livin' today.

Surely this is a far lower percentage than at any other point in history where the global population was smaller and the overall number of slaved folks was higher.
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henry quirk
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by henry quirk »

Also: I don't understand the distinction between chattel slavery and slavery.

Whether a person is slaved openly, thru legal means, or kidnapped and held covertly: it's all the same damn thing.

Mebbe the only difference is: it's easier to off the solitary sicko who kidnaps someone and keeps 'em chained up in the attic than it is to off a society/legal system that allows for enslavement.

In the first: you just shoot him in the face.

In the second: you have to exterminate the governors and their proxies, i.e. war.
popeye1945
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Re: Where did the Private Internal Moral Laws Arise from?

Post by popeye1945 »

"Where did the private internal moral laws arise from", but from our animal nature. This is the primordial source of all meaning, evoked from our common carbon-based biology, the essence of all life being the same.
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