Why is slavery wrong?

For all things philosophical.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:11 pm ...aren’t those who are forced into slavery consenting to being forced into slavery?
I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.
Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

Why is involuntary, chattel-type slavery wrong?

okay...we can go with that...me, I think it's unnecessary overkill, but, alright

-----


Why is involuntary, chattel-type slavery wrong?
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pmz
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:11 pm ...aren’t those who are forced into slavery consenting to being forced into slavery?
I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.
Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
by definition, consent is freely given

if joe, while holdin' a gun to her head, tells stella give up the trim or I blow your head off, stella is bein' coerced, her consent, her capacity to give it, is short circuited...she can't say no and walk away: she has to submit, die, or fight, none of which was on her agenda for the evening
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:11 pm ...aren’t those who are forced into slavery consenting to being forced into slavery?
I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.
Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
That's the only terms on which they can "force" us. That's by definition. If we "consent," they didn't "force" us at all.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pm
I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.
Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
That's the only terms on which they can "force" us. That's by definition. If we "consent," they didn't "force" us at all.
Then supposing we do not consent to being forced to do something, we refuse point blank to do what they force us to do, then how can we say we are being forced to do something, how can someone force someone to do what they refuse to do?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 pmz

I can't even figure out how this question is supposed to make sense, DAM.

"Being forced" and "consenting" are opposite propositions.
Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
by definition, consent is freely given

if joe, while holdin' a gun to her head, tells stella give up the trim or I blow your head off, stella is bein' coerced, her consent, her capacity to give it, is short circuited...she can't say no and walk away: she has to submit, die, or fight, none of which was on her agenda for the evening
Then all that is saying is that if we do not subscribe to slavery then we will end up dead,so in order to survive one has to give in to being used as a slave… is that what you mean?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:45 pm ...how can someone force someone to do what they refuse to do?
You're confused.

To "force" somebody is, by definition, to make them do something they "refuse" or "do not choose" to do.

If they do not refuse, or they choose to do it, then no force is implicated or necessary.

This is so simple: how are you having trouble with this? :shock: Are you trying to say something profound, and just missing wildly?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:56 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:45 pm ...how can someone force someone to do what they refuse to do?
You're confused.

To "force" somebody is, by definition, to make them do something they "refuse" or "do not choose" to do.

If they do not refuse, or they choose to do it, then no force is implicated or necessary.

This is so simple: how are you having trouble with this? :shock: Are you trying to say something profound, and just missing wildly?
I’m just trying to respond in the only way I know how, it’s not supposed to be profound.

Let me try again… I’ll put it another way…how can we be forced to do something against our will?

What I mean is can we be forced to be a slave?
Last edited by Dontaskme on Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:24 pm

Can someone force us to do something unless we consent to doing it?
by definition, consent is freely given

if joe, while holdin' a gun to her head, tells stella give up the trim or I blow your head off, stella is bein' coerced, her consent, her capacity to give it, is short circuited...she can't say no and walk away: she has to submit, die, or fight, none of which was on her agenda for the evening
Then all that is saying is that if we do not subscribe to slavery then we will end up dead,so in order to survive one has to give in to being used as a slave… is that what you mean?
*sigh*

sam the slaver sez DAM, you seem to be a fine piece of meat...I could get good money sellin' you to them lil yellow bastids overseas...he won't take no for an answer

you can submit (this is not consent, but resignation)

you can die (this is not consent, but defiance)

(and -- really -- these 👆👇 are different versions of the same thing)

you can fight (this is not consent, but defiance with the possibility you'll win)

only if you can say nope, bein' a slave ain't for me and then peaceably walk away can consent be involved (and, as I say, no sane person wants to be a slave, so no sane person would consent to such a thing)
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 pm

by definition, consent is freely given

if joe, while holdin' a gun to her head, tells stella give up the trim or I blow your head off, stella is bein' coerced, her consent, her capacity to give it, is short circuited...she can't say no and walk away: she has to submit, die, or fight, none of which was on her agenda for the evening
Then all that is saying is that if we do not subscribe to slavery then we will end up dead,so in order to survive one has to give in to being used as a slave… is that what you mean?
*sigh*

sam the slaver sez DAM, you seem to be a fine piece of meat...I could get good money sellin' you to them lil yellow bastids overseas...he won't take no for an answer

you can submit (this is not consent, but resignation)

you can die (this is not consent, but defiance)

(and -- really -- these 👆👇 are different versions of the same thing)

you can fight (this is not consent, but defiance with the possibility you'll win)

only if you can say nope, bein' a slave ain't for me and then peaceably walk away can consent be involved (and, as I say, no sane person wants to be a slave, so no sane person would consent to such a thing)
Henry all I’m trying to say is that if someone can enlslave us and we agree to being enslaved then we are participating in our own slavery , we agree to be slaves…so how can that be wrong?

I’m sorry if I’m not understanding you, I am trying my best.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:02 pm …how can we be forced to do something against our will?
What a completely bizarre question.

The ONLY way you can be "forced" to do something is if it is "against your will." And the answer is, "Using force."

:roll: Wow. I can't believe you're having any trouble with this at all.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:02 pm …how can we be forced to do something against our will?
What a completely bizarre question.

The ONLY way you can be "forced" to do something is if it is "against your will." And the answer is, "Using force."

:roll: Wow. I can't believe you're having any trouble with this at all.
Ok then let me ask you this question, would you personally involve your own self to do slave labour? Would you be a slave?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:49 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:38 pm

by definition, consent is freely given

if joe, while holdin' a gun to her head, tells stella give up the trim or I blow your head off, stella is bein' coerced, her consent, her capacity to give it, is short circuited...she can't say no and walk away: she has to submit, die, or fight, none of which was on her agenda for the evening
Then all that is saying is that if we do not subscribe to slavery then we will end up dead,so in order to survive one has to give in to being used as a slave… is that what you mean?
*sigh*

sam the slaver sez DAM, you seem to be a fine piece of meat...I could get good money sellin' you to them lil yellow bastids overseas...he won't take no for an answer

you can submit (this is not consent, but resignation)

you can die (this is not consent, but defiance)

(and -- really -- these 👆👇 are different versions of the same thing)

you can fight (this is not consent, but defiance with the possibility you'll win)

only if you can say nope, bein' a slave ain't for me and then peaceably walk away can consent be involved (and, as I say, no sane person wants to be a slave, so no sane person would consent to such a thing)

right now, as I type, tens of thousands of men, women, and children are forced to labor for, to service, others

human trafficking is an industry: you won't find it on the nasdaq (any more than you'll find the billion-dollar illicit drug industry on the index), but a big chunk of the global economy is slave trade
The slave trade is a big chunk of the economy you say, does that slave trade include you Henry? Are you a part of this slave trade, are you a slave too?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:02 pm …how can we be forced to do something against our will?
What a completely bizarre question.

The ONLY way you can be "forced" to do something is if it is "against your will." And the answer is, "Using force."

:roll: Wow. I can't believe you're having any trouble with this at all.
Not believing someone is having trouble with what they are having trouble with is disrespectful by the way. I can only understand what I understand.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

Henry all I’m trying to say is that if someone can enlslave us and we agree to being enslaved then we are participating in our own slavery , we agree to be slaves…so how can that be wrong?

no one agrees to be enslaved, DAM

no sane person, in the history of the world, has ever said yep, bein' another man's property, that's the life for me!

even in cultures where submission is the norm, no one craves the leash and looks to wear it

why do folks avoid the leash? why do men fight against slavers? cuz each and every one knows he is his own, that no other has a claim to his flesh, his mind, or his soul

this intuition is universal: there has never been a human being who didn't know he is his own and that it's wrong for him to be enslaved

even the slaver doesn't want to to be a slave, knows he is his own
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