Why is slavery wrong?

For all things philosophical.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:27 am
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:32 pm Not believing someone is having trouble with what they are having trouble with is disrespectful by the way.
What I mean is, "I can't believe somebody is saying she doesn't understand this, and isn't just playing a game." So my assumption has to be that you must be playing some kind of game.
Well it's easy to understand why you would say this now...since in past discussion, I have mentioned that life is a game, which it is...as we are each and everyone of us an actor on the stage of life each playing a role. Some of those roles we are forced into, but that does not deter people from wanting to play the game.

I understand that you do not think of life as a game, and I am fine with that, no problem there for me, but that doesn't change the fact that I view life as a game.


Right now, I am having trouble understanding the points you are making, that's part of the game of life for me here, sometimes I do not understand the points you are making. There is nothing to disbelieve about that, I am just being totally honest that I am having trouble understanding your point...believe me or not, I do not care, all I can do is inform you I am not understanding what you are saying..and wait for you to put your point in a way I can understand...or you could just give up on me, if it's too difficult a task for you to communicate with me, which I'm also fine with.

All I care about is trying to understand what other people are saying about stuff.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:25 am
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:14 pm Ok then let me ask you this question, would you personally involve your own self to do slave labour? Would you be a slave?
It's a completely irrelevant question.
I don't agree...

So slavery is known as a wrong...and yet the role of a slave is being played out on the worlds stage. So it seems obvious to me, that the 'slave role' has to be played out by 'someone', for the role to be able to be justified into making the judgement call that it is wrong, this is so obvious to me. You won't say if you would play the slave role, but someone obviously has to play the role....right...

So what should happen.. how can we avoid a wrong in favor of a right, where no one has to play the role of a slave. It's as though we prefer the right way to live and reject the wrong way to live. So what is going to give IC? ...do you have an alternative plan that could possibly eradicate ''wrong doings'' from ever being a reality in our human society?

As long as we are forming an opinion or conclusion about a situation being wrong, then surely we have to justify that judgement call, by employing people who will fill the role that we deem as a wrong role..

I would be interested in your thoughts about these issues..

I suppose what I am trying to say is unless we are personally acting out the role of a slave, do we have the authority to inform someone who is playing out the role of a slave that they are being wronged, just because someone else thinks it's wrong even though that someone else wouldn't allow themselves to be slaves because they think it's wrong. . that question needs to be addressed too..don't you think?

Do the people playing the wrong roles even care that they are playing the wrong roles? Do we have the right to say their roles are wrong just because we think it's wrong...do we have the right to impose our own thoughts onto other people?
Surely if people really didn't like what role they are playing in life, they wouldn't be playing it.... right?

And even if people were forced into playing the slave role...that's just how human societies seem to operate...right? ...no one seems to know what to do about that ...so what's the point in judging it as wrong, if nothing ever changes or is done about it to change it.

Who's right is it to say what is a wrong roleplay, unless we are personally playing out the wrong roleplay. Why would that be the business of someone who would never put themselves forward for that slave role, to say it is wrong for another who does...is my point?


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Walker
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Walker »

A Conversation between an Englishman, a Scotchman, and an American, on the Subject of Slavery.
- Benjamin Franklin
https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 17-02-0019


Sample:
Amer. A Slave, according to my Notion, is a human Creature, stolen, taken by Force, or bought of another or of himself, with Money; and who being so taken or bought, is compelled to serve the Taker, or Purchaser, during Pleasure or during Life. He may be sold again, or let for Hire, by his Master to another, and is then obliged to serve that other; he is one who is bound to obey, not only the Commands of his Master, but also the Commands of the lowest Servant of that Master, when set over him; who must come when he is called, go when he is bid, and stay where he is ordered, though to the farthest Part of the World, and in the most unwholesome Climate; who must wear such Cloaths as his Master thinks fit to give him, and no other, though different from the common Fashion, and contrived to be a distinguishing Badge of Servitude; and must be content with such Food or Subsistence as his Master thinks fit to order for him, or with such small Allowance in Money as shall be given him in Lieu of Victuals or Cloathing; who must never absent himself from his Master’s Service without Leave; who is subject to severe Punishments for small Offences, to enormous Whippings, and even Death, for absconding from his Service, or for Disobedience to Orders. I imagine such a Man is a Slave to all Intents and Purposes.


Commentary: In this fictional conversation written by Franklin, Franklin makes the case that the English soldier of the time was more a slave than a slave in the American colonies.
popeye1945
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by popeye1945 »

If there is no assumption of morality then nothing is wrong. " To God all things are right and good. only to man, some things are and somethings are not." Heraclitus The most rational bases of morality is our common biology, that which supports life is moral that which negates life in whatever degree is wrong. Compassion only arises when one identifies one's self with the self of others, for one who cannot do this, we term a psychopath, where other remains an object to be manipulated, as with slavery. You deny the slave his/her humanity, which is detrimental to his/her well being, detrimental to his/her biology.
Last edited by popeye1945 on Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

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popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:45 am If there is no assumption of morality then nothing is wrong. " To God all things are right and good. only to man, some things are and somethings are not." Heraclitus The most rational bases of morality is our common biology, that which supports life is moral that which negates life in whatever degree is wrong. Compassion only arises when one identifies one's self with the self of others, for one who cannot do this, we term a psychopath, where other remains an object to be manipulated, as with slavery. You deny the slave his/her humanity, which is detrimental to his/her well being, detrimental to his/her's biology.
👍 well said.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

if they are not consenting or agreeing to being a slave...then it seems like they are not too bothered about being wronged in their playing the role of a slave

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:47 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:25 am
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:14 pm Ok then let me ask you this question, would you personally involve your own self to do slave labour? Would you be a slave?
It's a completely irrelevant question.
I don't agree...
And yet, it is. It's completely irrelevant.

What I would do is not a litmus test for wrongness or rightness. There might be things I would not do, but would be right for me to do, and things I might do that maybe I should not do. Human beings are fallible.

So whether I would or would not want to be a slave, or to have a slave, is not logically determinative of anything. My initutions can be wrong.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:36 pm if they are not consenting or agreeing to being a slave...then it seems like they are not too bothered about being wronged in their playing the role of a slave

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Why are some people enslaved and not others?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:38 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:47 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:25 am
It's a completely irrelevant question.
I don't agree...
And yet, it is. It's completely irrelevant.

What I would do is not a litmus test for wrongness or rightness. There might be things I would not do, but would be right for me to do, and things I might do that maybe I should not do. Human beings are fallible.

So whether I would or would not want to be a slave, or to have a slave, is not logically determinative of anything. My initutions can be wrong.
Would you want your own child to be a slave? Would the parents of all the slaves in society have wanted that life for their children? and yet slavery exists and people are still having children knowing slavery exists.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by henry quirk »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:49 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:36 pm if they are not consenting or agreeing to being a slave...then it seems like they are not too bothered about being wronged in their playing the role of a slave

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Why are some people enslaved and not others?
cuz some folks are targeted by slavers and don't win out against them
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:55 pm Would you want your own child to be a slave?
Irrelevant to the question.

Even if the people suffering the slavery absolutely hate it, that doesn't imply it's morally wrong. People don't like all kinds of things that are not wrong. It just tells you they don't like being on the losting side of the equation; but in a Darwnian world, that's just too bad for them. In a Darwinian world, seizing power and prosperity for oneself is a self-justifying act: the powerful survive, and the weak become slaves...that's just how it is, according to Darwinianism, and there's no moral dimension to it.

So none of these questions shed any light at all on the main question.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:06 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:55 pm Would you want your own child to be a slave?
Irrelevant to the question.

Even if the people suffering the slavery absolutely hate it, that doesn't imply it's morally wrong. People don't like all kinds of things that are not wrong. It just tells you they don't like being on the losting side of the equation; but in a Darwnian world, that's just too bad for them. In a Darwinian world, seizing power and prosperity for oneself is a self-justifying act: the powerful survive, and the weak become slaves...that's just how it is, according to Darwinianism, and there's no moral dimension to it.

So none of these questions shed any light at all on the main question.
So let those who question WHY something is wrong answer. And would they even know how to answer their own question?

It's like asking WHY am I or anyone else born into a world where slavery exists, and the answer would be because I am. That's just the way it is. Reality doesn't care about morality, the universe is not thinking about whether it is a moral place or not, the universe just is.

Morality only showed up when sentient feeling organisms known as human beings did. It's humans that have imposed morality upon what has no morality.

So again, why is it that foreknowledge, of knowing that slavery exists in the world of humanity, would you want to impose it on another being by creating more children to also live in a world where they could possibly succumb to slavery.

That's the main question that you seem to want to call irrelevant, like there is nothing to see here, move along.

It's very obvious to me that no one cares about slavery. No one cares about what is WRONG...as long as I'm not being wronged, because I am a free being, so nothing can ever enslave me. When in fact, the very idea of slavery is how you ever even knew you were a free being in the first place.
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:06 pm It just tells you they don't like being on the losting side of the equation; but in a Darwnian world, that's just too bad for them.
Yes, it is too bad for them because no one wins at life, we're all going to lose in the end. The very idea that someone is winning at life is because they have somehow cleverly avoided the negatives, but that does not mean the negatives will ever go away, life is always about avoiding the negatives, else there is no such thing as a winner. But even the idea of a winner is negative because even when you think you are winning, you're actually losing because to win means someone else had to lose, so the need to win is also the need to make losers. And we do all this to ourselves, and only have ourselves to blame, since nothing in the universe ever had a need not until we showed up.

We created WRONG...so we have to live with it..and because we choose to continue on with our species, then it seems obvious we do not have a problem with living in a world where we can be wronged, since we created the idea.
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

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popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:45 am The most rational bases of morality is our common biology, that which supports life is moral that which negates life in whatever degree is wrong.
What is "rational" about that?

I'm not asking because I disagree with "that which supports life is moral . . ." I'm asking because I don't see what's "rational" about it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is slavery wrong?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:27 pm So let those who question WHY something is wrong answer.
That's also irrelevant.

We're not looking for a census of public opinion, because that also is often wrong. We're looking for a specific reason: what makes the act of enslaving somebody actually, objectively wrong.
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