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What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm
by vegetariantaxidermy
What does 'freedom' even mean? The 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery?
The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
by henry quirk
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pmThe 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery? The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:30 pm
by vegetariantaxidermy
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pmThe 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery? The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
Evidence? I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry. You are full of crap.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
by simplicity
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:42 pm
by vegetariantaxidermy
simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Not bad. Any intelligent being would enjoy doing as they please. Doing what you must, in order to survive, is not very pleasant.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 pm
by Impenitent
freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose... - Joplin

-Imp

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:21 pm
by Dubious
simplicity wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:38 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.
Doing what one must is not freedom, which normally allows for a limited number of choices. Based on whatever circumstance, a "must" mandate allows for only one action. Where's the freedom in that. There is also the damned if I do and damned if I don't variety which forces one to make a choice when you'd rather not have that option. In life, as it appears to me, freedom is an island in a sea of necessity.

But maybe you meant something else by it.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm
by Dubious
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm
by henry quirk
veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 pm
by henry quirk
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:58 pm
by Dubious
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:18 pm
The gorilla, to be blunt, is too stupid to see the cage for what it is.
The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.
Oh, don't soak your shorts! I take it all back...except what I said!

If he didn't recognize it as a cage he wouldn't be attacking it from the inside to get the hell out.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:04 am
by henry quirk
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:58 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:49 pm
Dubious wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:38 pm

The gorilla knows that the cage is disallowing him freedom of movement. Why would they often grab the bars and shake it just like a human would when it gets desperate for release? Are you really so stupid to believe an animal is so stupid it doesn't know when it's forcibly confined, especially among the higher mammalian group...which eventually you may become a member of!
Hey, veg is the who described Mr. Rilla as happy with his lot, I only said he was stupid not to recognize his cage as a cage.

Funny how you wanna piss in my cornflakes and not hers.
Oh, don't soak your shorts! I take it all back...except what I said!

If he didn't recognize it as a cage he wouldn't be attacking it from the inside to get the hell out.
hey! veg! duh-duh-duh-dubious is contradictin' you!

better put him in place

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:08 am
by henry quirk
anyway, since the question is gettin' lost among the manure, let me steer the thread clear of the patties and back on track...
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean?
Self-direction, self-reliance, self-responsibility. There's a moral aspect as well, but nobody wants to talk about that.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:46 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
I said 'well run, empathetic zoos'. They don't have cages these days. A gorilla is not going to be any happier in a cage than a human would be. And I'm talking 'literal' cage here, not some euphemism that you've concocted.

Re: What is 'freedom'?

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:49 am
by henry quirk
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:46 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:43 pm veg,

Evidence?

That Mr. Rilla is too stupid to know he's caged? That he's in a cage and does nuthin' to challenge his circumstance. Like Aesop's house dog (and you, I'm guessin'), Mr. Rilla is content with his leash becuz he doesn't recognize it as such.

I doubt if you live a jungle lifestyle, Henry.

I don't. I'm also not in a cage (though I could be if I just followed orders [but, I don't, so...]).

-----

simplicity,

Freedom is not doing what you please, but instead, doing what you must.

What must one do?
I said 'well run, empathetic zoos'. They don't have cages these days. A gorilla is not going to be any happier in a cage than a human would be.
yes, they live in naturalistic enclosures: sounds like a cage to me