What is 'freedom'?

[henry quirk]

Why would you bring your son into existence knowing enslavement is wrong.

He, like me, like you, came into the world as a free being; he remains a free being

the possibility of harm, abuse, etc. is no reason to not be

But isn't that taking a risk with someone else's life, just saying there is a possibilty of harm,is probable, but not likely, so I'll take the risk anyway. How do you get to choose whether that risk is worth taking for another person who hasn't any choice about whether they want to take that risk?

I don't consider the possibility of harm as a good reason to deny life it's due: my kid likes livin', is glad to be

moreover: I see livin' as a positive...I wouldn't deny my kid his shot at what we both see as a damned good thing

The unborn have no reason to be

you don't know that

[RCSaunders]

goof finished

here, enjoy some wisdom...

Here is wisdom:

Most people want security in this world, not liberty. --H.L. Mencken

The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty--and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies. --[H.L. Mencken, Baltimore Evening Sun, 12 February 1923]

But I agree with Mencken:

I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough to want to force it upon anyone. --H.L. Mencken

Because, like Mencken:

I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time. --H.L. Mencken

[Dontaskme]

The unborn have no reason to be

you don't know that

The unborn can only have a reason to be because you believe there is a reason to be, the belief is coming from you only, not from the unborn. All knowledge is an imposition upon that which takes absolutely no position, except in this conception.

The unborn know nothing of existence, nothing at all...it's only when they are born do they become aware of knowledge, and aware of reason and purpose.

They might hate being alive and wish they had never been born....you just cannot assume the unborn will enjoy living life, just because you do...so continuing the species is a risk we take with other peoples lives, and I happen to believe that is wrong, just because we think it is our right and freedom to impose life on another.

.

[henry quirk]

as I say: I don't consider the possibility of harm as a good reason to deny life it's due: my kid likes livin', is glad to be

moreover: I see livin' as a positive...I wouldn't deny my kid his shot at what we both see as a damned good thing

[Dontaskme]

as I say: I don't consider the possibility of harm as a good reason to deny life it's due: my kid likes livin', is glad to be

moreover: I see livin' as a positive...I wouldn't deny my kid his shot at what we both see as a damned good thing

How can you think life is a positive experience and at the same time live in a world where people are wronged into slavery.

Personally, I do not enjoy eating my banquet knowing there are others on the verge of starvation. I personally would not choose to come here again, knowing what I know. But each to their own, as long as people are living their best life, then that's their prerogative to do so.

Personally, I do not see anything positive about inviting unborn children to join a world that could blow up in their face at any moment, I hardly doubt it's that much fun to die a slow agonising death from radiation sickness. But each to their own jolly I suppose, of which there are many, and the opposite is also true...there are many sickening ways to die, especially slow ways.

But it seems we don't care about playing the game over and over and over again, as long as I get to have my jolly.

.

[RCSaunders]

Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

that's not my experience: not with family, friends, or the wider community

Then your experience is a very provincial parochial one. Your, "community," must be a very isolated one because it is nothing like the larger world of American society, or even the world's society.

Most Americans would be terrified if they believed there was not a government there to take care of them, to provide their education, their health care, protection them from, "big business," and every possible threat from the weather to foreign powers.

Do you have any idea how many people depend on government programs for everything from education to food and housing? Do you think they want to be free to have to supply those things themselves?

40 million Americans in 2018, (costing $57.1 billion, are on SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program--i.e. food stamps). They cannot feed themselves or their children. There are 22.6 million children each school day (costing $10.4 billion) fed by NSLP (National School Lunch Program). Do you really think these people would rather be free to feed themselves and their children?

Slightly over one-fifth (21.1 percent) of American families (6.665 million) receive government assistance from the TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) program. 73 million Americans, (about 22 percent of the U.S. population) have their health needs paid for by Medicaid costing $458 billion. Over 8 million Americans receive SSI (Supplemental Security Income) costing $57 billion.

No, most Americans would be terrified of having the kind of freedom that would require them to provide for their own children's education, health care, employment, future emergencies and retirement. You need to get out more, Henry.

[promethean75]

It's not that they could be free if only they chose to, in the sense that you describe, but that they literally couldn't afford to be so even if they wanted. They simply don't make enough money, and/or the costs of living, of paying for those things even if made to do so, is too much to bear. Well of course people could work eighty hours a week, sure, but it's much easier just to be exploited by crapitalist parasites and depend on credit to get by. Better to be terminally in debt your entire life than work that eighty hours a week, right? Right.

[henry quirk]

RC,

you say...

Most people do not want to be free.

and you present this:...

40 million Americans in 2018, (costing $57.1 billion, are on SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program--i.e. food stamps). They cannot feed themselves or their children. There are 22.6 million children each school day (costing $10.4 billion) fed by NSLP (National School Lunch Program). Do you really think these people would rather be free to feed themselves and their children?

Slightly over one-fifth (21.1 percent) of American families (6.665 million) receive government assistance from the TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) program. 73 million Americans, (about 22 percent of the U.S. population) have their health needs paid for by Medicaid costing $458 billion. Over 8 million Americans receive SSI (Supplemental Security Income) costing $57 billion.

...as evidence that...

most Americans would be terrified of having the kind of freedom that would require them to provide for their own children's education, health care, employment, future emergencies and retirement.

let's see if your evidence suffices

-40 million Americans in 2018...are on SNAP (out of 326.8 million)

-There are 22.6 million children each school day fed by NSLP (out of over 50.7 million students)

-Slightly over one-fifth (21.1 percent) of American families (6.665 million) receive government assistance from the TANF program. (one-fifth, not three or four fifths)

-73 million Americans, (about 22 percent of the U.S. population) have their health needs paid for by Medicaid (22 not 72 percent)

-Over 8 million Americans receive SSI (out of 326.8 million)

no, you can't say most Americans would be terrified of having the kind of freedom that would require them to provide for their own children's education, health care, employment, future emergencies and retirement becuz the numbers you offer reflect minorities, not majorities

also: to my mind, your figures say more about The State (and the lengths it goes to to create problems then sell solutions to those problems) than the folks who are all, supposedly, a'fear'd of freedom

so: no, no cookie, gold star, or thumb up, for you

[henry quirk]

How can you think life is a positive experience and at the same time live in a world where people are wronged into slavery(?)

cuz I'm not a simpleton...cuz I'm able to hold two seemingly opposin' notions in my head, and recognize the truth of both, without meltin' down

[Veritas Aequitas]

Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

In the article, "Freedom Not For Everyone," I explained how slavery is put over and preferred by most people and why they hate freedom:

How Slavery Is Put Over

It's not called slavery, it's called, "social order," when individuals are forced to comply with rules made by some for the benefit of others. It begins small. It's only a little oppression, but it's, "for a good cause," but once a principle is violated, whatever the justification, there is never a limit to that violation. Once freedom is violated, there is no end of the restrictions and demands on one's choices and life that will follow.

What begins as, "we cannot allow people to starve," ends as, "we cannot allow people to be uneducated, not have good housing, be poor in their old age, not have health care, not have a job, not be protected from scurrilous marketers, not be "safe" on the highway, business, homes, bathrooms, or ... (supply your favorite thing no one should have to go without, whether they earn it or not). You can have all of these things and more, at least until the slaves who are supplying them realize they are slaves; you can have them, but you cannot have them and freedom too.

The Price Of Freedom

The price of freedom is not having all those things. It is the price most are unwilling to pay. It means not having the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income. It means not being guaranteed no one will ever say something mean to or about you. It means there are no guarantees. It means you will live in a world of danger, temptation, and risks. It means you will be responsible for every aspect of your own life from the time you reach adulthood until you die. It means, if you mess up your life, you and only you will suffer the consequences.

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.

The above is very narrow minded, shallow, dumb, rhetorical and a strawman.

Any "price" of freedom is not 'freedom' itself which is the OP's topic.
Whatever the 'price' of anything is a subjective value by an individual or individual[s] arising from the principles of supply and demand or cost vs benefits.

I wrote earlier,
'Freedom' is the ability to make 'informed' choice about x.
Firstly there is no absolute freedom in reality.
Whatever the freedom, it must be overridden by morality & ethics.

Thus 'freedom' means the ability to self-govern [autonomy' to make 'informed' choice on
"the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income" etc. on a voluntary basis. So, one is 'free' to accept whatever is offered within the current state of things.
Other than the insanity factor, the exception is all the above must be overridden by morality & ethics.

[RCSaunders]

RC,

you say...

Most people do not want to be free.

and you present this:...

40 million Americans in 2018, (costing $57.1 billion, are on SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program--i.e. food stamps). They cannot feed themselves or their children. There are 22.6 million children each school day (costing $10.4 billion) fed by NSLP (National School Lunch Program). Do you really think these people would rather be free to feed themselves and their children?

Slightly over one-fifth (21.1 percent) of American families (6.665 million) receive government assistance from the TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) program. 73 million Americans, (about 22 percent of the U.S. population) have their health needs paid for by Medicaid costing $458 billion. Over 8 million Americans receive SSI (Supplemental Security Income) costing $57 billion.

...as evidence that...

most Americans would be terrified of having the kind of freedom that would require them to provide for their own children's education, health care, employment, future emergencies and retirement.

let's see if your evidence suffices

-40 million Americans in 2018...are on SNAP (out of 326.8 million)

-There are 22.6 million children each school day fed by NSLP (out of over 50.7 million students)

-Slightly over one-fifth (21.1 percent) of American families (6.665 million) receive government assistance from the TANF program. (one-fifth, not three or four fifths)

-73 million Americans, (about 22 percent of the U.S. population) have their health needs paid for by Medicaid (22 not 72 percent)

-Over 8 million Americans receive SSI (out of 326.8 million)

no, you can't say most Americans would be terrified of having the kind of freedom that would require them to provide for their own children's education, health care, employment, future emergencies and retirement becuz the numbers you offer reflect minorities, not majorities

also: to my mind, your figures say more about The State (and the lengths it goes to to create problems then sell solutions to those problems) than the folks who are all, supposedly, a'fear'd of freedom

so: no, no cookie, gold star, or thumb up, for you

How many Americans, whether they take advantage of the programs or not, would be willing to live without them? How many Americans provide their own children's education and want it that way?

Then there are the millions who are employed by the government, producing no product at all that anyone would willing pay for. Every government employee being payed with money extorted from those who produce it at every level, federal, state, and munical, every member of law enforcement, every program administrator, every welfare agent, etc. etc.

Then there are the millions employed by government subsidized industry and businesses like college professors and administrators and so-called scientists and of course the largetst subsidized industry of all (and the largest chunk of the federal budget) the defense industry which produces absolutely nothing of value except machines and materials for killing people and destroying property. Most Americans love it, except for the few whose productive efforts are confiscated to support the whole mess.

How many Americans support government programs that make sure others behave the way they would like, ensuring they pay their taxes, obey all traffic laws, get their Covid shots, don't use certain drugs or medical procedures, don't violate any building codes or product regulations?

How many Americans vote, believing whatever they vote for should be forced on all those who voted against the same things if they are in the majority? Odd, what people think freedom is.

[RCSaunders]

Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

In the article, "Freedom Not For Everyone," I explained how slavery is put over and preferred by most people and why they hate freedom:

How Slavery Is Put Over

It's not called slavery, it's called, "social order," when individuals are forced to comply with rules made by some for the benefit of others. It begins small. It's only a little oppression, but it's, "for a good cause," but once a principle is violated, whatever the justification, there is never a limit to that violation. Once freedom is violated, there is no end of the restrictions and demands on one's choices and life that will follow.

What begins as, "we cannot allow people to starve," ends as, "we cannot allow people to be uneducated, not have good housing, be poor in their old age, not have health care, not have a job, not be protected from scurrilous marketers, not be "safe" on the highway, business, homes, bathrooms, or ... (supply your favorite thing no one should have to go without, whether they earn it or not). You can have all of these things and more, at least until the slaves who are supplying them realize they are slaves; you can have them, but you cannot have them and freedom too.

The Price Of Freedom

The price of freedom is not having all those things. It is the price most are unwilling to pay. It means not having the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income. It means not being guaranteed no one will ever say something mean to or about you. It means there are no guarantees. It means you will live in a world of danger, temptation, and risks. It means you will be responsible for every aspect of your own life from the time you reach adulthood until you die. It means, if you mess up your life, you and only you will suffer the consequences.

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.

The above is very narrow minded, shallow, dumb, rhetorical and a strawman.

But true! Sometimes the truth is like that.

[henry quirk]

How many Americans, whether they take advantage of the programs or not, would be willing to live without them? How many Americans provide their own children's education and want it that way?

I don't know: and neither do you

Then there are the millions who are employed by the government...

Then there are the millions employed by government subsidized industry and businesses...

cite me some reputable figures: let's see if you're right

How many Americans support government programs that make sure others behave the way they would like, ensuring they pay their taxes, obey all traffic laws, get their Covid shots, don't use certain drugs or medical procedures, don't violate any building codes or product regulations?

I don't know: neither do you

How many Americans vote, believing whatever they vote for should be forced on all those who voted against the same things if they are in the majority?

how many americans are registered to vote? of those, how many actually do?

[Dontaskme]

How can you think life is a positive experience and at the same time live in a world where people are wronged into slavery(?)

cuz I'm not a simpleton...cuz I'm able to hold two seemingly opposin' notions in my head, and recognize the truth of both, without meltin' down

Enlightened minds are able to do that, right up until the shit hits the fan.

China for example is a successful country because it’s corrupt.


In Longhua, the vast complex where iPhones are made and where unhappy workers kill themselves. Suicide nets save most.

Not every one is made for this world. And when the nukes rain down which they will when the time comes, most of us will melt.

[henry quirk]

China for example is a successful country because it’s corrupt.

china is in the middle of a great reorganizing: as a nation, and ideologically

state-capitalism is passé: the grand economic success has proven, to the powers that be there, to be culturally eroding

marxism (their variant) is on the rise, openly, overtly, purposefully

as for china's corruption: where's the corruption?

by definition: corruption implies hypocrisy...the chinese have been anything but that

the slaver-state, that openly enslaves is not corrupt: it's just wrong