Our universe is contingent

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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:47 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

So, to you, God NEVER existed in ANY universe, before God created absolutely EVERY thing out of absolutely NO thing.

Okay. And, as I was saying and showing the ABSURD becomes MORE and MORE ABSURD and RIDICULOUS the further you 'try to' back up and support your previous claims.
If a universe existed before act of creation out of nothing then the act of creation is not creation out of nothing since a universe already exist.
But to even just suggest that there was ANY "creation out of nothing" IS ABSURDITY in the EXTREME. Let alone to go on with ANY of the other ABSURD things you are saying and claiming here.

LOOK, there is ONLY One Universe, which is eternal AND infinite, by nature. And, this is a Fact, which OBVIOUSLY can NOT be refuted. So, there is NO use AT ALL even talking about ANY God thing, creating this Universe, out of NO things. All of this God/big bang created EVERY thing, from NO thing, is just completely AND utterly ABSURD, and to keep going on and on about it is just INSANITY, to the EXTREME.
You keep repeating your nonsense.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm Now, WHERE was God BEFORE It created absolutely EVERY thing or this Universe?
Nowhere. I told you that I don't think that such a God exist.
But you keep telling us that some 'mind' thing DID.
No, I didn't say so. How things began is off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm WHEN did God create this Universe? And,
People and not me think at the beginning of everything.
So, do you AGREE and ACCEPT that there was NO beginning to Everything?
No, there was a beginning but no God who creates out of noting.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
If no, then what do you think in regards to this?
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm WHAT is God, EXACTLY?
All-powerful, all knowledgable, etc. Simply the creator.
So, to you, God is EXACTLY simply 'the creator'.

Now, 'the creator' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, how, EXACTLY, did God/the creator create this thing or things? And WHERE and WHEN did God create this thing or things?
Creation is the ability of mind.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
I KNOW. But WHY is it 'you', "bahman", who keeps saying God created EVERY thing out of NO thing.
I didn't say so.
Are you absolutely sure?
Yes. I have a thread on this topic, the act of creation out of nothing is logically impossible.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am
So, the one creating these words here is 'A God'.
No, it is a god. A God is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc.
What does 'etc' refer to, EXACTLY? And
All other attributes of God.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm Who or what is God, EXACTLY, to you?
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am

What is 'God', to you, EXACTLY, by definition?
Simply a mind with the ability to create but S/He defers from us because S/He knows everything.
So, to you, there exists "A gendered mind", somewhere.

Are you aware that your attempts at justifying your previous CLAIMS are looking more and more absurd and ridiculous, to us readers?
Mind does not have a gender but a person could have a gender or it could be an it.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am

So, WHY THEN did you bring this up and mention it here?
Let's forget this.
So, I ask you a CLARIFYING QUESTION about WHY you brought some thing up, which you VERY QUICKLY remarked was "off topic", and you can NOT even CLARIFY this for us here.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am

Besides your "arguing" being illogical, unsound, invalid, and unreasonable here it is also VERY, VERY DEFECTIVE with your 'circular reasoning'.
Which part is illogical?
The part about;

God is an all-knowing, all-powerful, etc, simple creator mind thing, which is NOT to be mistaken by the 'minds' in 'you', human beings, which are gods, but which only has control over human bodies, but which does not have control over 'you', because 'you', persons or human beings, have control over "your minds".

As well as a LOT of other things you say and claim here.
Ok. As you say.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:57 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm

But there is NO so-called "human mind". And, until you come to REALIZE this Fact, you will continue on saying the Truly ABSURD and RIDICULOUS things that you do here.

By the way, who or what do you want to now say controls the so-called "human mind"?
So, again you with your theory of thee Mind.
What, EXACTLY, are you 'trying to' imply here?

I just said what you do NOT YET REALIZE, and what you will continue to do. Which has been PROVED True, ALREADY.

I also just asked you a CLARIFYING QUESTION, which you OBVIOUSLY can NOT answer, without looking STUPID, and so, OBVIOUSLY, you did NOT answer it.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm


YES. The human animal is VERY, VERY DIFFERENT from ALL of the other animals.

WHY do you say these COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC REMARKS, which I OBVIOUSLY NEVER even IMPLIED, let alone said?

Is part of the REASON to 'try to' DETRACT from the ILLOGICAL, ABSURD, and RIDICULOUS CLAIM you made here about how 'we' do NOT control animal bodies?

You OBVIOUSLY FORGOT the Fact that the human body IS an 'animal body'. So, if as you BELIEVE and CLAIM, that you do NOT control animal bodies, then you OBVIOUSLY also do NOT control the human body.

Like a GREAT DEAL of your "arguments" you end up saying the MOST ABSURD and RIDICULOUS things when I QUESTION and CHALLENGE you.
So you think that we control animals?
AGAIN, what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER ATTEMPT at DETRACTION from the MOST ABSURD CLAIM that "bahman" about how it does NOT control the body that it is within.

Also, 'you', human beings, CERTAINLY DO control some animals, especially when you lock them up in cages or within fences, and fatten them up, just so 'you' can then KILL them, just so you can then EAT them.

'you', also, by the way, do HAVE CONTROL over human animals. Although the way you "treat" earth and the environment that 'you' NEED for live, I wonder just how much control 'you' REALLY do have over "yourselves".

From what I am observing and witnessing, the way 'you' are so-called "controlling yourselves", in the days when this is being written, 'you' REALLY do NOT have that much time left on that One and ONLY home you call earth.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:47 am


AND, BECAUSE you can NOT even substantiate YOUR CLAIMS here.
No, because you don't simply understand the implication of a definition.
LOL

NO one understands YOUR definitions, besides 'you', OF COURSE. But, then again, I wonder sometimes if even you KNOW and UNDERSTAND what you, "yourself", say and claim.
No, you don't understand the implication of your definition.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:02 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:19 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:15 pm

What does what you 'like' and/or 'dislike' have to do with what IS ACTUALLY True or NOT?

Why do you NOT just say what you do NOT like with P1 instead?
I don't think that P1 is true. It needs a proof.
LOL
LOL
LOL

How MANY TIMES do you have to be TOLD before you UNDERSTAND that while you MAINTAIN a BELIEF, then there is absolutely NO proof AT ALL that can be given to you for the contrary?

'you', "bahman", just like EVERY other adult human being are NOT able to SEE PROOF if you BELIEVE that NONE exists.

So, as I suggested, in my QUESTIONING to you, if you REALLY think that P1 is NOT true, then WHY NOT just PROVIDE the ACTUAL PROOF you have for this way of thinking. If you PROVIDED that, then there would, OBVIOUSLY, be NO proof for the "other side".
That is not my argument. It is his. So the burden of proof is on him.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:09 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:20 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm

I am not sure you could break this down any more.

Surely even "bahman" would NOT even 'try to' argue against this.
I already argued against it.
Yes you did 'try to', SURPRISINGLY.

And, ONCE AGAIN, if ANY one provides 'an argument', then the ONLY Right reason for doing so is so that "others" can POINT OUT and SHOW, to that one WHERE that their 'argument' is NOT a sound AND valid argument, and NOT really worth repeating AT ALL. And, as I have previously stated, there is NO use in repeating an argument that is NOT a sound AND valid argument. End of story.

ANY and ALL sound AND valid arguments, after all, just express a Fact, which NO one could refute, and so REALLY once an argument SHOWS and REVEALS thee ACTUAL Truth of things, ONCE, then that Truth, literally, just speaks for Itself. As I just SHOWED and PROVED, once again above.
Off-topic.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:00 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:38 pm
Everything that happens in the universe is contingent upon the existence of the universe and other things in it. The universe as a whole cannot be contingent on anything because it is everything. and not contingent thing can exist if it doed not have a ground of existence. The universe is that necessary ground of existence.
There are two objections here: 1) I am talking about our universe rather than everything and
RIght here - this is exactly why I think you have no business posting to a philosophy thread. The "universe" IS eveything. If you don't know that then you don't know shit.

2) You need to prove that everything which is constituted of all possible things exists (for example a Sculptor who believe in the contingency of the universe somewhere in everything:mrgreen:).
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:50 am Furthur to that. Since all things conform to cause and effect. All contingent actions are caused by antecedant conditions. This all stems from the existence and qualities of the universe. Consequently all contingent events rely on cause and effect and are so the necessary outcome of previous grounding conditions. COnclusion is that all things are necessary.
I don't think that all things always conform to cause and effect. For example, a system cannot evolve based on cause and effect when there is a conflict of interests in a system. I have a thread on this topic in here.
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:50 am WOuld you like me to break it down more?
Oh, no. Thanks. That was long enough.
I am making the distinction between our universe, the physical one that we experience which is only one possible universe, and everything which is the sum of all possible universes. I cannot argue with you if you cannot understand this simple definition.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

What is the DIFFERENCE between the misnomer "our universe" and 'everything'.

Until you start CLARIFYING, LOGICALLY, "bahman" you are just looking more and more ABSURD and RIDICULOUS here.
By our universe, I mean the physical one that human beings can experience.
Now, what is the difference between the "physical universe" and the "non physical one"?

Also, WHY continue on with that MOST ABSURD term and phrase "our universe", when 'you' do NOT even KNOW what thee 'our' is YET? The 'ego' within 'you', human beings, is relentless.
The non-physical universe is a universe that human beings cannot experience
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm This is one possible universe and it is different from everything possible.
'you', "bahman", thinking and speaking logically is POSSIBLE, but that does NOT mean that 'it' has existed, hitherto.

Now, what has existed, hitherto, is part of thee One and ONLY Universe that could EVER ONLY EXIST. So, there is NO "other possible universes". And, to ASSUME otherwise is just ABSURD, FOOLISH, and RIDICULOUS, to the EXTREME.
I am making the distinction between universes. I cannot help you if you cannot understand the simple fact.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

An eternal AND infinite Universe is ALL the PROOF that is needed for your ABSURD and RIDICULOUS expectation and demand here.
No.
I am getting tired of 'trying to' get you to CLARIFY.

Now, what does this 'no' mean or refer to, EXACTLY, THIS TIME?
I disagree with what you said. Our universe is not eternal since it has a beginning. It might not be infinite too. You need a proof for it.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

Here is MORE PROOF of WHEN a human being BELIEVES some thing, then they will say just about ANY thing in order to 'try to' back up and support their current BELIEF, and this includes saying the MOST ABSURD and RIDICULOUS of things, as PROVEN above.
Do you know what is the conflict of interest?
Do you KNOW what is 'cause AND effect'?

And, do you KNOW that it does NOT matter how MANY 'conflicts of interest' there ARE, or to what EXTREME the 'conflict of interest' IS, this will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, STOP 'cause AND effect' from occurring?

If you did NOT KNOW this, then HOPEFULLY you will starting THINKING about this NOW.
You are hopeless since you cannot understand what the conflict of interest is.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

It would NOT matter how many people SHOWED you, in as many words, nor in as the least amount of words, possible that you are just Wrong here, you still would NOT be able to SEE this NOR understand this Fact. And, this is solely due to the Fact that you BELIEVE, wholeheartedly, otherwise.
As you wish.
What do you mean here by, "As you wish"?

It is 'you', "bahman", with the BELIEFS here, which 'you' do NOT 'wish' to let go of. No matter how Wrong or ABSURD they ARE, 'you' are HOLDING ONTO THEM, with "dear life", as some say. And, this is, literally, because if 'you' did let them go, then 'you' would NOT be 'you', ANYMORE.
It means I don't care for what you said. It means it is off-topic.
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Sculptor
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:00 pm
There are two objections here: 1) I am talking about our universe rather than everything and
RIght here - this is exactly why I think you have no business posting to a philosophy thread. The "universe" IS eveything. If you don't know that then you don't know shit.

2) You need to prove that everything which is constituted of all possible things exists (for example a Sculptor who believe in the contingency of the universe somewhere in everything:mrgreen:).


I don't think that all things always conform to cause and effect. For example, a system cannot evolve based on cause and effect when there is a conflict of interests in a system. I have a thread on this topic in here.


Oh, no. Thanks. That was long enough.
I am making the distinction between our universe, the physical one that we experience which is only one possible universe, and everything which is the sum of all possible universes. I cannot argue with you if you cannot understand this simple definition.
That distinctionhas not been made. It is painfully simple. But this changes NOTHING.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:21 pm
RIght here - this is exactly why I think you have no business posting to a philosophy thread. The "universe" IS eveything. If you don't know that then you don't know shit.
I am making the distinction between our universe, the physical one that we experience which is only one possible universe, and everything which is the sum of all possible universes. I cannot argue with you if you cannot understand this simple definition.
That distinctionhas not been made. It is painfully simple. But this changes NOTHING.
It does change things.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Our universe is contingent

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bahman wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:45 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:15 pm
The universe could indeed be different!
It is that kind of baseless superstitious assertion that makes all philosophy useless.
Really?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm What is, is, and could not possibly be anything else. If it were something else, it would not be at all. The universe is.
So the universe wouldn't exist if you did not exist?
That's true. Reality is all that is, and all that is, is reality. There is nothing more or less than reality. Since reality includes all that is, since you and I exist, reality includes you and I. There cannot be a universe in which you and I do not exist.

Why do you want to make everything so difficult?
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:23 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:45 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm
It is that kind of baseless superstitious assertion that makes all philosophy useless.
Really?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm What is, is, and could not possibly be anything else. If it were something else, it would not be at all. The universe is.
So the universe wouldn't exist if you did not exist?
That's true. Reality is all that is, and all that is, is reality. There is nothing more or less than reality. Since reality includes all that is, since you and I exist, reality includes you and I. There cannot be a universe in which you and I do not exist.

Why do you want to make everything so difficult?
Do you believe in volition?
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:25 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:23 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:45 pm
Really?


So the universe wouldn't exist if you did not exist?
That's true. Reality is all that is, and all that is, is reality. There is nothing more or less than reality. Since reality includes all that is, since you and I exist, reality includes you and I. There cannot be a universe in which you and I do not exist.

Why do you want to make everything so difficult?
Do you believe in volition?
I would not say I, "believe," in it. Human beings are volitional beings, meaning everything they do consciously they must consciously choose to do.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:25 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:23 pm
That's true. Reality is all that is, and all that is, is reality. There is nothing more or less than reality. Since reality includes all that is, since you and I exist, reality includes you and I. There cannot be a universe in which you and I do not exist.

Why do you want to make everything so difficult?
Do you believe in volition?
I would not say I, "believe," in it. Human beings are volitional beings, meaning everything they do consciously they must consciously choose to do.
So your parents could decide not to have you but they decide the opposite. That means that you could exist not but you exist. That means that reality could exist without you. Therefore, the reality in its form is not necessary. It is only a possibility that is actual.
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:26 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:25 pm
Do you believe in volition?
I would not say I, "believe," in it. Human beings are volitional beings, meaning everything they do consciously they must consciously choose to do.
So your parents could decide not to have you but they decide the opposite. That means that you could exist not but you exist.
Of course it doesn't mean that at all. Before they made the choice they could have made either. They were both possible but neither was made yet--neither was reality. When they made the choice, like all past things, what they chose became reality and is what it is. Like all past things it could never have been anything else--not because it was caused but because what is can never be anything other than what it is.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:26 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:11 pm
I would not say I, "believe," in it. Human beings are volitional beings, meaning everything they do consciously they must consciously choose to do.
So your parents could decide not to have you but they decide the opposite. That means that you could exist not but you exist.
Of course it doesn't mean that at all. Before they made the choice they could have made either. They were both possible but neither was made yet--neither was reality. When they made the choice, like all past things, what they chose became reality and is what it is. Like all past things it could never have been anything else--not because it was caused but because what is can never be anything other than what it is.
Of course, the past could be different and you could not be here. That is the very meaning of volition. Options are real.
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:11 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:57 pm
I am making the distinction between our universe, the physical one that we experience which is only one possible universe, and everything which is the sum of all possible universes. I cannot argue with you if you cannot understand this simple definition.
That distinctionhas not been made. It is painfully simple. But this changes NOTHING.
It does change things.
Since you have no knowledge of that which is not knowable you can have nothing to say about that.
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