Our universe is contingent

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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:00 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:11 pm
That distinctionhas not been made. It is painfully simple. But this changes NOTHING.
It does change things.
Since you have no knowledge of that which is not knowable you can have nothing to say about that.
I can make it simple and knowable for you. Is your existence necessary?
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:47 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
If a universe existed before act of creation out of nothing then the act of creation is not creation out of nothing since a universe already exist.
But to even just suggest that there was ANY "creation out of nothing" IS ABSURDITY in the EXTREME. Let alone to go on with ANY of the other ABSURD things you are saying and claiming here.

LOOK, there is ONLY One Universe, which is eternal AND infinite, by nature. And, this is a Fact, which OBVIOUSLY can NOT be refuted. So, there is NO use AT ALL even talking about ANY God thing, creating this Universe, out of NO things. All of this God/big bang created EVERY thing, from NO thing, is just completely AND utterly ABSURD, and to keep going on and on about it is just INSANITY, to the EXTREME.
You keep repeating your nonsense.
It only APPEARS as "nonsense" to those who do NOT even attempt to GAIN CLARITY.

Because, OF COURSE, if and when CLARITY is GAINED that what WAS once considered "nonsense" can only then BEGIN to makes sense.

By the way, what part of what I said here do you consider is "my nonsense"?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Nowhere. I told you that I don't think that such a God exist.
But you keep telling us that some 'mind' thing DID.
No, I didn't say so. How things began is off-topic.
WHY?

If thee One and ONLY Universe is contingent or NOT, then a discussion about whether thee One and ONLY Universe began or NOT could be VERY ON TOPIC.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
People and not me think at the beginning of everything.
So, do you AGREE and ACCEPT that there was NO beginning to Everything?
No, there was a beginning but no God who creates out of noting.
So, to you, there was a beginning to the Universe, correct, or 'a beginning' to some thing else? And, if it was the latter, then what was that 'thing', EXACTLY?

Is there 'A God' to you?

If yes, then WHERE is this God in relation to thee Universe, Itself? And what, EXACTLY, did this God create, EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
If no, then what do you think in regards to this?
Off-topic.
Here we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of EXACTLY WHEN someone is NOT able to back up and support THEIR CLAIMS. Which is FURTHER PROOF of EXACTLY HOW, WHY, WHEN, and WHERE someone's CLAIMS are just plain old False, Wrong, or Incorrect. Which leads to discovering or uncovering WHAT thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
All-powerful, all knowledgable, etc. Simply the creator.
So, to you, God is EXACTLY simply 'the creator'.

Now, 'the creator' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, how, EXACTLY, did God/the creator create this thing or things? And WHERE and WHEN did God create this thing or things?
Creation is the ability of mind.
Of which, to you, there are MANY.

Like, there are "minds", which 'you', human beings, have and use BUT which, contradictory, CONTROL 'you' AS WELL. And, there are, to you again, "minds", which exist within ALL objects, and then there is that all-knowing, all-powerful, all-etc, simply the creator "mind", which may or may not have caused or created 'the beginning' of the Universe. Which, to you, is NOT Everything.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
I didn't say so.
Are you absolutely sure?
Yes. I have a thread on this topic, the act of creation out of nothing is logically impossible.
So, because 'you' "have a thread" on a particular topic, then this MEANS 100% that WHATEVER "bahman" writes in that thread IS IRREFUTABLY True, Right, AND Correct, correct?

In other words, if "bahman" writes "a thread", then what 'you' write can NOT be False, Wrong, NOR Incorrect, correct?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
No, it is a god. A God is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc.
What does 'etc' refer to, EXACTLY? And
All other attributes of God.
What "other" attributes?

The ones 'you', "bahman", gives, or the ones that "immanuel can" gives, or the ones "veritas aequitas" gives, and provides?

Also, does whatever attributes 'you', human beings, give to what God is, MEAN that that is what God is, EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm Who or what is God, EXACTLY, to you?
Off-topic.
MORE PROOF of WHEN one is NOT ABLE to respond NOR answer when they are are CHALLENGED or QUESTIONED on THEIR CLAIMS.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Simply a mind with the ability to create but S/He defers from us because S/He knows everything.
So, to you, there exists "A gendered mind", somewhere.

Are you aware that your attempts at justifying your previous CLAIMS are looking more and more absurd and ridiculous, to us readers?
Mind does not have a gender but a person could have a gender or it could be an it.
YET you just got through CLAIMING that there is "a mind" which is a "she" or a "he", and that "he" or "she" KNOWS EVERY thing.

But now you want to CLAIM that 'Mind' does NOT have a gender, but people may or may not have a gender.

Do you reckon that just ONCE when I CHALLENGE you or ask you a QUESTION for CLARITY that you will be ABLE to PROVIDE some sort of CLARITY instead of just making things FAR MORE NONSENSICAL or CONVOLUTED?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Let's forget this.
So, I ask you a CLARIFYING QUESTION about WHY you brought some thing up, which you VERY QUICKLY remarked was "off topic", and you can NOT even CLARIFY this for us here.
Off-topic.
Okay. So, WHY did 'you' bring up this off-topic 'thing', in the first place?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
Which part is illogical?
The part about;

God is an all-knowing, all-powerful, etc, simple creator mind thing, which is NOT to be mistaken by the 'minds' in 'you', human beings, which are gods, but which only has control over human bodies, but which does not have control over 'you', because 'you', persons or human beings, have control over "your minds".

As well as a LOT of other things you say and claim here.
Ok. As you say.
And is this all you could REALLY say.

After all I just POINTED OUT and SHOWED some of the parts of what you say that do NOT make sense and ARE ILLOGICAL, to me.
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:51 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:57 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
So, again you with your theory of thee Mind.
What, EXACTLY, are you 'trying to' imply here?

I just said what you do NOT YET REALIZE, and what you will continue to do. Which has been PROVED True, ALREADY.

I also just asked you a CLARIFYING QUESTION, which you OBVIOUSLY can NOT answer, without looking STUPID, and so, OBVIOUSLY, you did NOT answer it.
Off-topic.
LOL So, all I do is just ask you the CLARIFYING QUESTION, 'What, EXACTLY, are you 'trying to' imply here?' (By the actual words that YOU wrote down here), and your response is "Off-topic".

You REALLY do NOT appear to understand the concept of expressing what you think or believe is true, right, and correct, and then BEING ABLE to back up AND support those thoughts or BELIEFS. And, especially considering that we are in a 'philosophy forum', that you do NOT YET seem to understand this context is all the more humorous.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:12 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
So you think that we control animals?
AGAIN, what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER ATTEMPT at DETRACTION from the MOST ABSURD CLAIM that "bahman" about how it does NOT control the body that it is within.

Also, 'you', human beings, CERTAINLY DO control some animals, especially when you lock them up in cages or within fences, and fatten them up, just so 'you' can then KILL them, just so you can then EAT them.

'you', also, by the way, do HAVE CONTROL over human animals. Although the way you "treat" earth and the environment that 'you' NEED for live, I wonder just how much control 'you' REALLY do have over "yourselves".

From what I am observing and witnessing, the way 'you' are so-called "controlling yourselves", in the days when this is being written, 'you' REALLY do NOT have that much time left on that One and ONLY home you call earth.
Off-topic.
LOL HOW could what I wrote here be, SUPPOSEDLY, "off-topic"? What I wrote was in DIRECT relation to what 'YOU', "bahman", "yourself", ASKED ME about in regards to what I thought in relation to 'you' controlling animals.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:18 pm
No, because you don't simply understand the implication of a definition.
LOL

NO one understands YOUR definitions, besides 'you', OF COURSE. But, then again, I wonder sometimes if even you KNOW and UNDERSTAND what you, "yourself", say and claim.
No, you don't understand the implication of your definition.
What do you mean by "your definition"?

WHEN did I give "a definition", what was "my definition", and HOW EXACTLY do I NOT KNOW the "implication of my definition" but 'you', somehow SUPPOSEDLY do KNOW the "implication of my definition"?

Again, your CLEAR and CONCISE answers, for CLARIFICATION, will be MUCH APPRECIATED.
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:02 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:19 pm
I don't think that P1 is true. It needs a proof.
LOL
LOL
LOL

How MANY TIMES do you have to be TOLD before you UNDERSTAND that while you MAINTAIN a BELIEF, then there is absolutely NO proof AT ALL that can be given to you for the contrary?

'you', "bahman", just like EVERY other adult human being are NOT able to SEE PROOF if you BELIEVE that NONE exists.

So, as I suggested, in my QUESTIONING to you, if you REALLY think that P1 is NOT true, then WHY NOT just PROVIDE the ACTUAL PROOF you have for this way of thinking. If you PROVIDED that, then there would, OBVIOUSLY, be NO proof for the "other side".
That is not my argument. It is his.
'What', EXACTLY, is NOT 'your argument', but is 'his argument'? And, who is "he", EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 pm So the burden of proof is on him.
The burden of PROOF of 'what', EXACTLY, is on "him"? And,

Who, EXACTLY, is "him"?

Also, if you are CLAIMING the EXACT OPPOSITE of what "he" is CLAIMING, then WHY can you NOT just PROVE "him" Wrong, with YOUR PROOF for YOUR CLAIM?

Or, do you NOT have ANY ACTUAL PROOF, for YOUR CLAIM?
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:54 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:09 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:20 pm
I already argued against it.
Yes you did 'try to', SURPRISINGLY.

And, ONCE AGAIN, if ANY one provides 'an argument', then the ONLY Right reason for doing so is so that "others" can POINT OUT and SHOW, to that one WHERE that their 'argument' is NOT a sound AND valid argument, and NOT really worth repeating AT ALL. And, as I have previously stated, there is NO use in repeating an argument that is NOT a sound AND valid argument. End of story.

ANY and ALL sound AND valid arguments, after all, just express a Fact, which NO one could refute, and so REALLY once an argument SHOWS and REVEALS thee ACTUAL Truth of things, ONCE, then that Truth, literally, just speaks for Itself. As I just SHOWED and PROVED, once again above.
Off-topic.
But HOW could what I said here be SUPPOSEDLY "off-topic"?

You made the CLAIM that you had ALREADY " argued against 'it' ". I was just POINTING OUT that if your "argument" was NOT a sound AND valid argument, then your 'it' has NOT been LOGICALLY NOR SOUNDLY "argued against" AT ALL.

Which MEANS you have just strung some words together, which you CLAIM is "an argument", and, to you, MEANS that you have "argued against" another's views, but this, OBVIOUSLY, does NOT mean that you have ACTUALLY SUCCESSFULLY "argued against" ANY thing AT ALL, REALLY.
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:00 pm
There are two objections here: 1) I am talking about our universe rather than everything and
RIght here - this is exactly why I think you have no business posting to a philosophy thread. The "universe" IS eveything. If you don't know that then you don't know shit.

2) You need to prove that everything which is constituted of all possible things exists (for example a Sculptor who believe in the contingency of the universe somewhere in everything:mrgreen:).


I don't think that all things always conform to cause and effect. For example, a system cannot evolve based on cause and effect when there is a conflict of interests in a system. I have a thread on this topic in here.


Oh, no. Thanks. That was long enough.
I am making the distinction between our universe, the physical one that we experience which is only one possible universe, and everything which is the sum of all possible universes. I cannot argue with you if you cannot understand this simple definition.
BUT that SIMPLE DEFINITION of YOURS does NOT 'logically follow'. As has ALREADY been SHOWN, and ALREADY PROVED True, by EVERY one is this thread discussing this 'thing' with you here.
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
By our universe, I mean the physical one that human beings can experience.
Now, what is the difference between the "physical universe" and the "non physical one"?

Also, WHY continue on with that MOST ABSURD term and phrase "our universe", when 'you' do NOT even KNOW what thee 'our' is YET? The 'ego' within 'you', human beings, is relentless.
The non-physical universe is a universe that human beings cannot experience
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Then how do 'you', the human being, KNOW that 'it' even exists at all?

Are 'you', "bahman", a human being?

If yes, then HOW did 'you' come to experience this OTHER universe, which 'you' can NOT experience?

But if 'you', "bahman", are NOT a human being, then who and/or what are 'you', EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm This is one possible universe and it is different from everything possible.
'you', "bahman", thinking and speaking logically is POSSIBLE, but that does NOT mean that 'it' has existed, hitherto.

Now, what has existed, hitherto, is part of thee One and ONLY Universe that could EVER ONLY EXIST. So, there is NO "other possible universes". And, to ASSUME otherwise is just ABSURD, FOOLISH, and RIDICULOUS, to the EXTREME.
I am making the distinction between universes. I cannot help you if you cannot understand the simple fact.
And I have ALREADY PROVED IRREFUTABLY True, to you, that there IS NOT and NEVER even could be ANY "other universes". But, if you can NOT YET understand this Fact, then 'we' will HAVE TO FIND OTHER WAYS to help 'you' to SEE and UNDERSTAND what thee ACTUAL Truth IS here "bahman".
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
No.
I am getting tired of 'trying to' get you to CLARIFY.

Now, what does this 'no' mean or refer to, EXACTLY, THIS TIME?
I disagree with what you said. Our universe is not eternal since it has a beginning.
"our universe" is NOT EVEN a Correct and Accurate phrase or term. Let alone have absolutely ANY thing to do with what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS here. So, you can disagree until the day that little old body stops breathing and pumping blood. But if 'you' can NOT even USE the Correct and Right True terms and phrases, to begin with, then 'you' will NEVER come to KNOW what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS.

In "bahman's" own 'little world' it may be ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY True that "bahman's" and "some other's" universe is NOT eternal, and thus had NO beginning. But that is just that "little universe" ONLY, which OBVIOUSLY has NO bearing AT ALL on what ACTUALLY HAPPENS and OCCURS in thee One and ONLY Universe, in which absolutely EVERY thing exists.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm It might not be infinite too. You need a proof for it.
But I do NOT need a proof for the Fact that thee One and ONLY Universe IS eternal AND infinite. That is just the way 'things' ARE. Oh, and by the way, I NEVER needed proof for that NOR ANY thing else is because I neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE ANY thing is true. So, I do NOT seek NOR need PROOF. I just use what IS, ALREADY, for PROOF. As, what IS SPEAKS for Itself, anyway.
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
Do you know what is the conflict of interest?
Do you KNOW what is 'cause AND effect'?

And, do you KNOW that it does NOT matter how MANY 'conflicts of interest' there ARE, or to what EXTREME the 'conflict of interest' IS, this will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, STOP 'cause AND effect' from occurring?

If you did NOT KNOW this, then HOPEFULLY you will starting THINKING about this NOW.
You are hopeless since you cannot understand what the conflict of interest is.
And, I could also ACCUSE 'you' of being HOPELESS because I BELIEVE, without ACTUAL PROOF, that you can NOT understand some thing, AS WELL.

But for ANY one to even ATTEMPT to do this just SHOWS and REVEALS the IMMATURITY and STUPIDITY of that one, so I would NEVER do such a thing as you have done here.

By the way, WHAT 'conflict of interest' are you referring to here, EXACTLY?

And, HOW could ANY 'conflict of interest' STOP 'cause AND effect' from continually occurring and happening?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:40 pm
As you wish.
What do you mean here by, "As you wish"?

It is 'you', "bahman", with the BELIEFS here, which 'you' do NOT 'wish' to let go of. No matter how Wrong or ABSURD they ARE, 'you' are HOLDING ONTO THEM, with "dear life", as some say. And, this is, literally, because if 'you' did let them go, then 'you' would NOT be 'you', ANYMORE.
It means I don't care for what you said. It means it is off-topic.
So, WHY do you NOT just SAY what you ACTUALLY MEAN, INSTEAD?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:24 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:44 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:30 am
We do not control animals' bodies and minds. We just have control over our bodies. So I disagree that animals' minds are contingent upon humans' minds. Mind, in general, is not contingent otherwise we are dealing with a regress.
If you speak of control, obviously animals' mind are not contingent upon humans' mind.

As I presented the syllogism above and following therefrom,
  • 1. Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds.
    2. Animals' mind are part and parcel of reality.
    3. Therefore animals' mind cannot be independent [so are contingent] of human minds.
Show me what wrong with the above syllogism?
I don't like P1. Prove me that it is correct.
P1 is self-explanatory.
Reality is ALL that exists.

It is supported by my earlier syllogism, i.e.
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality.
Age
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:04 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:24 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:44 am
If you speak of control, obviously animals' mind are not contingent upon humans' mind.

As I presented the syllogism above and following therefrom,
  • 1. Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds.
    2. Animals' mind are part and parcel of reality.
    3. Therefore animals' mind cannot be independent [so are contingent] of human minds.
Show me what wrong with the above syllogism?
I don't like P1. Prove me that it is correct.
P1 is self-explanatory.
How could P1 be, supposedly, self-explanatory when you have NOT even explained what these, supposed "human mind" things are YET?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:04 am Reality is ALL that exists.
But ALL that exists is just Everything. But NOT EVERY thing is real NOR thus reality, itself.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:04 am It is supported by my earlier syllogism, i.e.
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality.
But your earlier syllogism is just as unsound AND invalid as your latter syllogism IS.
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Sculptor
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by Sculptor »

bahman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:33 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:00 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:19 pm
It does change things.
Since you have no knowledge of that which is not knowable you can have nothing to say about that.
I can make it simple and knowable for you. Is your existence necessary?
What is the "it" in your last sentence?
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:10 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:47 pm

But to even just suggest that there was ANY "creation out of nothing" IS ABSURDITY in the EXTREME. Let alone to go on with ANY of the other ABSURD things you are saying and claiming here.

LOOK, there is ONLY One Universe, which is eternal AND infinite, by nature. And, this is a Fact, which OBVIOUSLY can NOT be refuted. So, there is NO use AT ALL even talking about ANY God thing, creating this Universe, out of NO things. All of this God/big bang created EVERY thing, from NO thing, is just completely AND utterly ABSURD, and to keep going on and on about it is just INSANITY, to the EXTREME.
You keep repeating your nonsense.
It only APPEARS as "nonsense" to those who do NOT even attempt to GAIN CLARITY.

Because, OF COURSE, if and when CLARITY is GAINED that what WAS once considered "nonsense" can only then BEGIN to makes sense.

By the way, what part of what I said here do you consider is "my nonsense"?
That our universe is eternal and infinite.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

But you keep telling us that some 'mind' thing DID.
No, I didn't say so. How things began is off-topic.
WHY?

If thee One and ONLY Universe is contingent or NOT, then a discussion about whether thee One and ONLY Universe began or NOT could be VERY ON TOPIC.
No. The fact that the universe has a beginning has nothing to do with contingency.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm


So, do you AGREE and ACCEPT that there was NO beginning to Everything?
No, there was a beginning but no God who creates out of noting.
So, to you, there was a beginning to the Universe, correct, or 'a beginning' to some thing else? And, if it was the latter, then what was that 'thing', EXACTLY?

Is there 'A God' to you?

If yes, then WHERE is this God in relation to thee Universe, Itself? And what, EXACTLY, did this God create, EXACTLY?
I said there is no God.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
If no, then what do you think in regards to this?
Off-topic.
Here we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of EXACTLY WHEN someone is NOT able to back up and support THEIR CLAIMS. Which is FURTHER PROOF of EXACTLY HOW, WHY, WHEN, and WHERE someone's CLAIMS are just plain old False, Wrong, or Incorrect. Which leads to discovering or uncovering WHAT thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.
Off-topic. So please don't comment on this future since I am not going to reply to it.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

So, to you, God is EXACTLY simply 'the creator'.

Now, 'the creator' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, how, EXACTLY, did God/the creator create this thing or things? And WHERE and WHEN did God create this thing or things?
Creation is the ability of mind.
Of which, to you, there are MANY.

Like, there are "minds", which 'you', human beings, have and use BUT which, contradictory, CONTROL 'you' AS WELL. And, there are, to you again, "minds", which exist within ALL objects, and then there is that all-knowing, all-powerful, all-etc, simply the creator "mind", which may or may not have caused or created 'the beginning' of the Universe. Which, to you, is NOT Everything.
I never said that there is a mind or minds who created the beginning.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
Are you absolutely sure?
Yes. I have a thread on this topic, the act of creation out of nothing is logically impossible.
So, because 'you' "have a thread" on a particular topic, then this MEANS 100% that WHATEVER "bahman" writes in that thread IS IRREFUTABLY True, Right, AND Correct, correct?

In other words, if "bahman" writes "a thread", then what 'you' write can NOT be False, Wrong, NOR Incorrect, correct?
I just meant that I don't think that there is a creator of everything out of nothing. Whether this is true or not is the subject to another thread so it is off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

What does 'etc' refer to, EXACTLY? And
All other attributes of God.
What "other" attributes?

The ones 'you', "bahman", gives, or the ones that "immanuel can" gives, or the ones "veritas aequitas" gives, and provides?

Also, does whatever attributes 'you', human beings, give to what God is, MEAN that that is what God is, EXACTLY?
Other attributes like changeless, omnipresent, all-loving, etc. This is however off-topic so please don't ask further questions.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm Who or what is God, EXACTLY, to you?
Off-topic.
MORE PROOF of WHEN one is NOT ABLE to respond NOR answer when they are are CHALLENGED or QUESTIONED on THEIR CLAIMS.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

So, to you, there exists "A gendered mind", somewhere.

Are you aware that your attempts at justifying your previous CLAIMS are looking more and more absurd and ridiculous, to us readers?
Mind does not have a gender but a person could have a gender or it could be an it.
YET you just got through CLAIMING that there is "a mind" which is a "she" or a "he", and that "he" or "she" KNOWS EVERY thing.

But now you want to CLAIM that 'Mind' does NOT have a gender, but people may or may not have a gender.

Do you reckon that just ONCE when I CHALLENGE you or ask you a QUESTION for CLARITY that you will be ABLE to PROVIDE some sort of CLARITY instead of just making things FAR MORE NONSENSICAL or CONVOLUTED?
As I said mind does not have gender but the person has. This is however off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm

So, I ask you a CLARIFYING QUESTION about WHY you brought some thing up, which you VERY QUICKLY remarked was "off topic", and you can NOT even CLARIFY this for us here.
Off-topic.
Okay. So, WHY did 'you' bring up this off-topic 'thing', in the first place?
My fault.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:16 am


The part about;

God is an all-knowing, all-powerful, etc, simple creator mind thing, which is NOT to be mistaken by the 'minds' in 'you', human beings, which are gods, but which only has control over human bodies, but which does not have control over 'you', because 'you', persons or human beings, have control over "your minds".

As well as a LOT of other things you say and claim here.
Ok. As you say.
And is this all you could REALLY say.

After all I just POINTED OUT and SHOWED some of the parts of what you say that do NOT make sense and ARE ILLOGICAL, to me.
There are many things that we discuss in this thread that are off-topic. Including this one.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:32 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:02 pm

LOL
LOL
LOL

How MANY TIMES do you have to be TOLD before you UNDERSTAND that while you MAINTAIN a BELIEF, then there is absolutely NO proof AT ALL that can be given to you for the contrary?

'you', "bahman", just like EVERY other adult human being are NOT able to SEE PROOF if you BELIEVE that NONE exists.

So, as I suggested, in my QUESTIONING to you, if you REALLY think that P1 is NOT true, then WHY NOT just PROVIDE the ACTUAL PROOF you have for this way of thinking. If you PROVIDED that, then there would, OBVIOUSLY, be NO proof for the "other side".
That is not my argument. It is his.
'What', EXACTLY, is NOT 'your argument', but is 'his argument'? And, who is "he", EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 pm So the burden of proof is on him.
The burden of PROOF of 'what', EXACTLY, is on "him"? And,

Who, EXACTLY, is "him"?

Also, if you are CLAIMING the EXACT OPPOSITE of what "he" is CLAIMING, then WHY can you NOT just PROVE "him" Wrong, with YOUR PROOF for YOUR CLAIM?

Or, do you NOT have ANY ACTUAL PROOF, for YOUR CLAIM?
Veritas Aequitas.
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:22 pm

Now, what is the difference between the "physical universe" and the "non physical one"?

Also, WHY continue on with that MOST ABSURD term and phrase "our universe", when 'you' do NOT even KNOW what thee 'our' is YET? The 'ego' within 'you', human beings, is relentless.
The non-physical universe is a universe that human beings cannot experience
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Then how do 'you', the human being, KNOW that 'it' even exists at all?

Are 'you', "bahman", a human being?

If yes, then HOW did 'you' come to experience this OTHER universe, which 'you' can NOT experience?

But if 'you', "bahman", are NOT a human being, then who and/or what are 'you', EXACTLY?
No, I didn't experience other universes but they could exist. The universe with a higher dimension which contains our universe or the universe which are causally independent of ours.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

'you', "bahman", thinking and speaking logically is POSSIBLE, but that does NOT mean that 'it' has existed, hitherto.

Now, what has existed, hitherto, is part of thee One and ONLY Universe that could EVER ONLY EXIST. So, there is NO "other possible universes". And, to ASSUME otherwise is just ABSURD, FOOLISH, and RIDICULOUS, to the EXTREME.
I am making the distinction between universes. I cannot help you if you cannot understand the simple fact.
And I have ALREADY PROVED IRREFUTABLY True, to you, that there IS NOT and NEVER even could be ANY "other universes". But, if you can NOT YET understand this Fact, then 'we' will HAVE TO FIND OTHER WAYS to help 'you' to SEE and UNDERSTAND what thee ACTUAL Truth IS here "bahman".
Where is your proof that there are no other universes?
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

I am getting tired of 'trying to' get you to CLARIFY.

Now, what does this 'no' mean or refer to, EXACTLY, THIS TIME?
I disagree with what you said. Our universe is not eternal since it has a beginning.
"our universe" is NOT EVEN a Correct and Accurate phrase or term. Let alone have absolutely ANY thing to do with what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS here. So, you can disagree until the day that little old body stops breathing and pumping blood. But if 'you' can NOT even USE the Correct and Right True terms and phrases, to begin with, then 'you' will NEVER come to KNOW what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS.

In "bahman's" own 'little world' it may be ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY True that "bahman's" and "some other's" universe is NOT eternal, and thus had NO beginning. But that is just that "little universe" ONLY, which OBVIOUSLY has NO bearing AT ALL on what ACTUALLY HAPPENS and OCCURS in thee One and ONLY Universe, in which absolutely EVERY thing exists.
As I mentioned the universe is not eternal. This is the subject of another thread so feel free to open another thread and discuss your idea there. Off-topic.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm It might not be infinite too. You need a proof for it.
But I do NOT need a proof for the Fact that thee One and ONLY Universe IS eternal AND infinite. That is just the way 'things' ARE. Oh, and by the way, I NEVER needed proof for that NOR ANY thing else is because I neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE ANY thing is true. So, I do NOT seek NOR need PROOF. I just use what IS, ALREADY, for PROOF. As, what IS SPEAKS for Itself, anyway.
No, you need a proof. Why our physical universe is infinite?
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

Do you KNOW what is 'cause AND effect'?

And, do you KNOW that it does NOT matter how MANY 'conflicts of interest' there ARE, or to what EXTREME the 'conflict of interest' IS, this will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, STOP 'cause AND effect' from occurring?

If you did NOT KNOW this, then HOPEFULLY you will starting THINKING about this NOW.
You are hopeless since you cannot understand what the conflict of interest is.
And, I could also ACCUSE 'you' of being HOPELESS because I BELIEVE, without ACTUAL PROOF, that you can NOT understand some thing, AS WELL.

But for ANY one to even ATTEMPT to do this just SHOWS and REVEALS the IMMATURITY and STUPIDITY of that one, so I would NEVER do such a thing as you have done here.

By the way, WHAT 'conflict of interest' are you referring to here, EXACTLY?

And, HOW could ANY 'conflict of interest' STOP 'cause AND effect' from continually occurring and happening?
This we already discussed. When there are options in the system then there is a conflict of interest.
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Age wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm

What do you mean here by, "As you wish"?

It is 'you', "bahman", with the BELIEFS here, which 'you' do NOT 'wish' to let go of. No matter how Wrong or ABSURD they ARE, 'you' are HOLDING ONTO THEM, with "dear life", as some say. And, this is, literally, because if 'you' did let them go, then 'you' would NOT be 'you', ANYMORE.
It means I don't care for what you said. It means it is off-topic.
So, WHY do you NOT just SAY what you ACTUALLY MEAN, INSTEAD?
Ok, off-topic.
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:04 am
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:24 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:44 am
If you speak of control, obviously animals' mind are not contingent upon humans' mind.

As I presented the syllogism above and following therefrom,
  • 1. Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds.
    2. Animals' mind are part and parcel of reality.
    3. Therefore animals' mind cannot be independent [so are contingent] of human minds.
Show me what wrong with the above syllogism?
I don't like P1. Prove me that it is correct.
P1 is self-explanatory.
Reality is ALL that exists.

It is supported by my earlier syllogism, i.e.
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality.
Your conclusion in the second syllogism "the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality" is different from P1 in the first syllogism "Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds".
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bahman
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Re: Our universe is contingent

Post by bahman »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:32 am
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:33 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:00 am

Since you have no knowledge of that which is not knowable you can have nothing to say about that.
I can make it simple and knowable for you. Is your existence necessary?
What is the "it" in your last sentence?
By it I mean the discussion so we can discuss about knowable things.
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