Yes choices are caused by you through you knoweldge and the circumstances at the time.
QED determinism is true
ONCE AGAIN we have ANOTHER completely AND utterly Wrong ASSUMPTION.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:01 pmSo you don't think that the universe is infinite and eternal.
Well I do NOT, so there rest here is MOOT.
Well 'what' or 'who', EXACTLY, created the WHOLE Universe?
Is God the creator of so-called 'beginning" or not?
As I just said, you are, SADLY, very mistaken.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:01 pmOff-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmThis does not take away from the Fact that you have absolutely NO evidence AT ALL for your CLAIMS here, let alone have ANY ACTUAL PROOF. Nor, from just how much illogical nonsense you CLAIM here while 'trying' your hardest to back up and support those False, Wrong, and Incorrect CLAIMS of yours.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pm
I just meant that I don't think that there is a creator of everything out of nothing. Whether this is true or not is the subject to another thread so it is off-topic.
Other attributes like changeless, omnipresent, all-loving, etc. This is however off-topic so please don't ask further questions.
Off-topic.
As I said mind does not have gender but the person has. This is however off-topic.
My fault.
There are many things that we discuss in this thread that are off-topic. Including this one.
Besides this if you think discussing the Universe and how It exists and/or where It came from is "off topic" in a thread and topic about the 'Universe being contingent', then I think you will find that you are sadly very mistaken.
Is there absolutely ANY object that is NOT causally related?
Infinite.
TOTALITY, Everything, or ALL-THERE-IS.
I discussed in another thread that if some galaxies are coming closer together, then where, EXACTLY, is the expansion taking place.
Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of how even when thee ACTUAL evidence AND proof is provided to someone, then they will NOT accept thee ACTUAL PROOF when they BELIEVE otherwise.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:17 pmOff-topic.
That is not a proof.
No this is incorrect. I discussed this in another thread.
BUT, you claim that 'mind' is a substance, and as such is therefore only existing because of preexisting conditions or because of cause and effect. Therefore, this 'mind' thingy, which you talk about here can NOT be independent and free as you claim here.
Here we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of how and where one will 'try to' say just about absolutely ANY thing in order to 'try to' "justify" their already obtained and currently held BELIEFS.
So, your point is PROVED MOOT here.
You OBVIOUSLY STILL have absolutely NO IDEA NOR CLUE AT ALL about FREE WILL, DETERMINISM, what thee Universe ACTUALLY IS, and who and what thee Universe is ACTUALLY dependent upon or not.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:17 pmThat is not correct. The chain of causality is like when you walk on a road. It is only one way that you can proceed. Options is like when the road forks. So you have to decide which way to take. Once you decide then everything becomes deterministic until you reach other options.
Aren't you using the conclusion of the second argument as the premise of the first argument?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:09 amIf you don't understand my point, then I have not understood yours.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:44 pmDid you understand what I said?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:53 am
My reinforced second P1 included P3 of the first syllogism.
You'll have to clarify your point.
Yes, unless you reach a point that knowledge cannot help you for example. Moreover, here we are talking about accepting knowledge. Knowledge is not the only factor in life though. One for example wants to rob a bank in spite of knowing that it is illegal.
Can you answer my question instead of evading it?Age wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:54 pmONCE AGAIN we have ANOTHER completely AND utterly Wrong ASSUMPTION.
As can be CLEARLY SEEN here even when I suggest that the people do NOT make absolutely ANY ASSUMPTIONS AT ALL and just read thee ACTUAL words that I write, they STILL go straight into ASSUMPTION 'mode', and STILL make the EXACT SAME mistakes and thus Wrong ASSUMPTIONS, ONCE MORE.
Again you don't understand simple logic.
Minds sustain the universe constantly.
The universe has a beginning but it does not mean that someone created it.
This we have already discussed this. There is no God as the creator of the beginning.
No.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmAs I just said, you are, SADLY, very mistaken.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:01 pmOff-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
This does not take away from the Fact that you have absolutely NO evidence AT ALL for your CLAIMS here, let alone have ANY ACTUAL PROOF. Nor, from just how much illogical nonsense you CLAIM here while 'trying' your hardest to back up and support those False, Wrong, and Incorrect CLAIMS of yours.
Besides this if you think discussing the Universe and how It exists and/or where It came from is "off topic" in a thread and topic about the 'Universe being contingent', then I think you will find that you are sadly very mistaken.
If there are objects that are not causally related then they belong to another universe.
That is the point that we have different opinions about the definition of our universe.
Feel free to believe that that is a proof.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pmI discussed in another thread that if some galaxies are coming closer together, then where, EXACTLY, is the expansion taking place.
Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of how even when thee ACTUAL evidence AND proof is provided to someone, then they will NOT accept thee ACTUAL PROOF when they BELIEVE otherwise.
Even what thee WHOLE Universe actually consists of and even how thee Universe ACTUALLY works, this, to some, is NOT enough proof, for them.
No, mind is a substance that cannot be caused. It is the uncaused cause.
I am done with you.Age wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:16 amHere we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of how and where one will 'try to' say just about absolutely ANY thing in order to 'try to' "justify" their already obtained and currently held BELIEFS.
You have no idea what I am talking about.Age wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:16 amSo, your point is PROVED MOOT here.You OBVIOUSLY STILL have absolutely NO IDEA NOR CLUE AT ALL about FREE WILL, DETERMINISM, what thee Universe ACTUALLY IS, and who and what thee Universe is ACTUALLY dependent upon or not.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:17 pmThat is not correct. The chain of causality is like when you walk on a road. It is only one way that you can proceed. Options is like when the road forks. So you have to decide which way to take. Once you decide then everything becomes deterministic until you reach other options.
Note,bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:58 pmAren't you using the conclusion of the second argument as the premise of the first argument?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:09 amIf you don't understand my point, then I have not understood yours.
You'll have to clarify your point.
P3 in the first argument is different from P1 in the second argument.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:00 amNote,bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:58 pmAren't you using the conclusion of the second argument as the premise of the first argument?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:09 am
If you don't understand my point, then I have not understood yours.
You'll have to clarify your point.
First Argument
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality.
2nd Argument
1. Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds. [P3 1st argument]
2. Animals' mind are part and parcel of reality.
3. Therefore animals' mind cannot be independent [so are contingent] of human minds.
My first argument is fully incorporated in P1 of the 2nd Argument.
Note my bolded above which is implied.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:48 pmP3 in the first argument is different from P1 in the second argument.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:00 amNote,
First Argument
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality [as all-there-is].
2nd Argument
1. Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds. [P3 1st argument]
1a. The human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality [as all-there-is]
2. Animals' mind are part and parcel of reality.
3. Therefore animals' mind cannot be independent [so are contingent] of human minds.
My first argument is fully incorporated in P1 of the 2nd Argument.
But you NEVER asked a question here. What you did here, instead, was just make a statement and claim. As can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVED True by the ACTUAL words you used.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:13 pmCan you answer my question instead of evading it?Age wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:54 pmONCE AGAIN we have ANOTHER completely AND utterly Wrong ASSUMPTION.
As can be CLEARLY SEEN here even when I suggest that the people do NOT make absolutely ANY ASSUMPTIONS AT ALL and just read thee ACTUAL words that I write, they STILL go straight into ASSUMPTION 'mode', and STILL make the EXACT SAME mistakes and thus Wrong ASSUMPTIONS, ONCE MORE.
LOL "bahman".
Will you answer my question instead of evading it?
I NEVER said someone created It. In fact I NEVER even suggested that someone created It.
As spoken like a REAL human being.
LOL
OBVIOUSLY. This was ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY CLEAR from the VERY OUTSET.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:22 pmThat is the point that we have different opinions about the definition of our universe.
But I do NOT believe ANY such thing.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:22 pmFeel free to believe that that is a proof.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pmI discussed in another thread that if some galaxies are coming closer together, then where, EXACTLY, is the expansion taking place.
Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of how even when thee ACTUAL evidence AND proof is provided to someone, then they will NOT accept thee ACTUAL PROOF when they BELIEVE otherwise.
Even what thee WHOLE Universe actually consists of and even how thee Universe ACTUALLY works, this, to some, is NOT enough proof, for them.
WHY can this, SUPPOSED and ALLEGED, "substance", which you OBVIOUSLY have absolutely NO idea NOR clue about AT ALL, can NOT be, SUPPOSEDLY and ALLEGEDLY "caused"?bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:26 pmNo, mind is a substance that cannot be caused. It is the uncaused cause.
You have said and CLAIMED this previously, but here you are STILL 'doing', with me.
And this is NOT for TRYING.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:22 pmYou have no idea what I am talking about.Age wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:16 amSo, your point is PROVED MOOT here.You OBVIOUSLY STILL have absolutely NO IDEA NOR CLUE AT ALL about FREE WILL, DETERMINISM, what thee Universe ACTUALLY IS, and who and what thee Universe is ACTUALLY dependent upon or not.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:17 pm
That is not correct. The chain of causality is like when you walk on a road. It is only one way that you can proceed. Options is like when the road forks. So you have to decide which way to take. Once you decide then everything becomes deterministic until you reach other options.