All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

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simplicity
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
I was having my morning coffee and browsing the day's posts and a micro-organism buddy of mine squirmed over to my laptop and said that it would like to make a comment on the above statement. Here are a couple of its concerns [and it really boils down to one, the relative nature of good and evil as it co-exists with the good and evil in an absolute [or moral] sense.

My tiny friend suggests that the mere initiation of locomotion on a human's part means that millions [billions?, trillions?] of its kin-folk are going to be murdered. Whereas this doesn't appear as a major hindrance to anybody getting about, readers might see how this ongoing massacre might be a bit concerning to the micro-organism community [let's give them a letter, "M"].

This is the relative nature of good and evil. Good for us, not so good for them. OTOH, one must pan back to the world in which we humans live and that issue disappears. This is moral side of good and evil that takes practicality into consideration. The interesting thing is that's the way EVERYTHING works and is an enormous flaw which exposes [like so many things] the ineptitude of the human intellect.

Like It has been said for millennia, "Think at your own risk!"
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Scott Mayers wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:18 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
'Evil' is whatever human acts that are net-Negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Note reference to 'human acts' ONLY, not non-human acts.
I think that what is 'good' is only a definition of what IS funcitonal to the particular being AND not just limited to humanity. It is an assigned value during periods of development and not something universal apart from negotiating beings to the same standards of behavior.

For instance, before we can 'taste' something, the neural cells of the brain need a 'period' that seeks to set aside memory space for bodily peripherals that are being used. Those that do not get used during this period, free the brain to be assigned to distinctly other functions. So, if you do not actively use your taste buds during the period that tests to see if it is functioning, the brain will not learn to 'taste'.

When one does taste something in this period, it only interprets whatever it tastes during this period of development as 'tasty', like how we might first taste our mothers breast milk for the first time. AFTER development, the brain then associates those tastes that closely resemble those that were initially sensed when setting up the part of the brain that holds taste memory, these become assigned as 'tasty' too. Those that are furthest away from this assignment are 'untasty'.

The same goes for evaluating complex activities to which we refer to as 'moral' conduct. The moral conduct is artificial and only then related to the group. This is why animals can learn to kill and eat other animals (a 'good' thing) while learning also that killing ones' own (a 'bad' thing) is DEFINED 'moral'. That is, the group acts as a second stage of assignments for the more complex behaviors. Note though that we can 'learn' a distinctly opposite sense of what is 'good' from the group we are in even while we recognize that our internal evaluation is mismatched with the others. This creates social problems. For the individual who has a drastically distinct sense of evaluations from their group, he or she may be begged to define their feelings as 'immoral' or 'wrong' outwardly yet not internalize it as their own.

There is thus no need for any actual universal morality. But if you want to seek it, you CAN find means to get these in sync with the community by being sure to know when the periods of development are and attend to helping frame the environment of the child so that they get the same assignments. This should stand to reason. If everyone shared the same beliefs from the same sources, the social 'agreement' would align the same values equally amongst them. This of course is not easy and likely impossible in any absolute way because it requires a politic of all humans to be 'in sync' with the same shared set of values ....AND the same rewards or punishments that help shape these. Because evolution only favors the individual with priority, this is not likely to be successful even under the best of ideal conditions with respect to all beings. Certainly, for instance, it would be against someone's evolution should you expect a bear to respect the value of not eating fish [that is, not 'killing another being' as a VALUE shared].

I know I argued with you on this before. But does this not make better sense yet for you? It still points to requiring to deal with politics if you want to 'amplify' a shared set of values. It requires community agreement as to how to raise 'our' children in the critical development periods with the same set of standards. I don't see any other way.
Noted your points.

My intention for this OP is to focus on the subject of "evil" and its evolutionary neural basis for humans only.
There are many acts of non-humans [animals] that are gory, violent, horrific and the likes from the human perspective, but we cannot assign any human values of 'good' or 'evil' to such acts. Thus I confined my intent to humans only.
My definition of 'good' is only for comparative purpose only with no intention to go into depth of it in this OP.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.
All sub-humans believe this, and they are right.

Human beings are not, "programmed," at all. True human beings, of which there are very few, are volitional beings who must consciously choose all they think and do.

Only non-human animals have programs to determine their behavior.
Not surprise at all with your above post [graded F].

A "Program" re the OP is a set of coded potentials to act systematically.
In the OP such "programs" are "programmed" by nature and evolutionary forces.
In this case, all our instincts, to breathe, sex, food, fight or flight, etc. are "programmed" by nature and evolutionary forces and encoded in the DNA.

So what is wrong with
"All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil."

It is only sub-humans like you who cannot understand the point and is so ignorant to invoke the idea of "true human beings."
What is a true human being is answered by the question of 'what is truth' [dealt elsewhere] then applied to 'human being'.

What you had in mind re "true human beings" are the more evolved humans in alignment with certain progressive evolutionary trends.
Example, from the evident trend, human beings at present 2021 are more evolved and progressive as humans than those 200,000 years ago.
It would be absurd to label those humans 200,000 years ago as "untrue human beings".

Within the group of humans at any period of time, there will be those who are more developed as a human being than others.
Those who are more developed as human beings [in alignment with the evolutionary trend] are called peak performers with higher self-actualization.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:21 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

\...

To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.

So 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.

Therefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
Are you saying that humans are born with such programming, or that they are programmed afterward? I could agree with the latter.

I did not interpret any of my early experiences as evil -- nor did it occur to me to imagine or seek a god for any reason. I was just navigating the life I found myself in, and there were many terrors to navigate. Those experiences actually made me more aware and more reliant on myself. I was completely accepting of the possibility that life might just wipe me out. Like being naked (vulnerable) and moving through a jungle... I was attuned to living in the moment. It was all very natural. It made a huge impact (I guess) on how I am.

I think theism is the birthplace of all that it imagines and teaches (including evil) -- and, thus, creates a lot of it to varying degrees as self-fulfilling evidence that such potential is true -- rather than actually being representative of truth that naturally exists. I never conceptualized a Hell or Satan or demons or evil until theists got hold of me. It is really horrible superstitious abuse to do that to a child! By the time such things were being introduced to me, I had already experienced being a child without a god watching over me. So I had to learn to ignore my experiences, in order to subscribe to the theist story and explanations about a loving god. At least the Christians around me were trying to be loving. That was worth something, even if they seemed mentally intoxicated.
I mentioned 'potential'.
All humans are born with the 'potential' for evil but not all humans will be driven to commit evil acts by such an inherent potential for evil.
Fortunately all humans are also born with a set of inherent inhibitors to modulate any impulses from this "potential for evil". Thus those who have a more active set of inhibitors will be able to inhibit any impulse to do evil. E.g. modulating a sudden impulse to steal, rape, kill, injure or be violent, etc.

There is a complex set of reasons why a person turned to theism. Dealing with the impulses of evil is one of them but not the main reason. So in your case the question of 'evil' then was not the dominant conscious reason.

There are many cases of people who had violent & evil tendencies and they turned to God to help them to curb with these evil tendencies pulsating within them.
There are many who have very sinful thoughts and impulses [some are very natural and instinctual, e.g. sexual ones] and they reported that theism do/did help them to dissolve or manage such 'evil' impulses.

The potential to commit evil in all humans is inherent and embedded deep in the DNA and brain. So even those who are lucky or had developed efficient inhibitors can relapse back to their evil ways due to the atrophy of the relevant inhibitors neurons.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

simplicity wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:12 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
I was having my morning coffee and browsing the day's posts and a micro-organism buddy of mine squirmed over to my laptop and said that it would like to make a comment on the above statement. Here are a couple of its concerns [and it really boils down to one, the relative nature of good and evil as it co-exists with the good and evil in an absolute [or moral] sense.

My tiny friend suggests that the mere initiation of locomotion on a human's part means that millions [billions?, trillions?] of its kin-folk are going to be murdered. Whereas this doesn't appear as a major hindrance to anybody getting about, readers might see how this ongoing massacre might be a bit concerning to the micro-organism community [let's give them a letter, "M"].

This is the relative nature of good and evil. Good for us, not so good for them. OTOH, one must pan back to the world in which we humans live and that issue disappears. This is moral side of good and evil that takes practicality into consideration. The interesting thing is that's the way EVERYTHING works and is an enormous flaw which exposes [like so many things] the ineptitude of the human intellect.

Like It has been said for millennia, "Think at your own risk!"
Do you agree that all humans are "programmed" inherently with a potential to commit evil?

The Abrahamic theists and others believe 'evil' origin from external via Satan or the devil manipulating the human brain and self to commit evil.

The Buddhists and similar others believe [via guess and best inference] 'evil' originate from our own human selves, to they came up with various self-development programs to inhibit the inherent evil impulse from within.

Such approaches are based on the black-box perspective, i.e. they can understand the relation between input and outputs [cause and effects] but they don't understand the detailed processes [in the DNA, brain, body] in between inputs and outputs.
As such the OP leads to the question, what are these detailed processes and how can we understand them better so we can expedite the progress to all other humans.

Btw, as I had argued elsewhere, morality [good over evil] must be confined to humans and the human species only with considerations for non-human only if it has a direct and indirect impact on the well being of humans.
Extending morality anything beyond humanity will lead to a mess and sub-optimality.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:56 am Do you agree that all humans are "programmed" inherently with a potential to commit evil?
I am not sure what you mean by programmed but since virtually nothing is known about cognition, doesn't really matter.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:56 amThe Abrahamic theists and others believe 'evil' origin from external via Satan or the devil manipulating the human brain and self to commit evil.
Religion is the intellectualization of spirituality so anything within the religious sphere is going to be pointing towards the Truth, not the Truth itself. The Judaeo-Christian tradition has its parables to convey lots of messages that are [on the whole] good. It was written as a guide for the common man, for those of faith, not for those who are attempting to ascertain intellectual truth.

From what I can tell, the main message is that you must give up your ego to God because if you do follow your ego, you will find out [first hand] what the saying, "Man makes his own hell in this world," is all about.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:56 amThe Buddhists and similar others believe [via guess and best inference] 'evil' originate from our own human selves, to they came up with various self-development programs to inhibit the inherent evil impulse from within.

Such approaches are based on the black-box perspective, i.e. they can understand the relation between input and outputs [cause and effects] but they don't understand the detailed processes [in the DNA, brain, body] in between inputs and outputs.
As such the OP leads to the question, what are these detailed processes and how can we understand them better so we can expedite the progress to all other humans.
Although a serious Zen student, I do not consider myself a Buddhist so I don't know a great deal about its doctrine [which is extensive].
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:56 amBtw, as I had argued elsewhere, morality [good over evil] must be confined to humans and the human species only with considerations for non-human only if it has a direct and indirect impact on the well being of humans.
Extending morality anything beyond humanity will lead to a mess and sub-optimality.
I know...you want your cake and eat if too [like all who ply the intellectual waves].
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Impenitent »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
'Evil' is whatever human acts that are net-Negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Note reference to 'human acts' ONLY, not non-human acts.

To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.

So 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.

Therefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
not all human brains have similar neural connections

many human brains function without certain neural connections... and no, not all human brains function the same

human brains are as unique as the individuals which possess them

-Imp
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:34 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
'Evil' is whatever human acts that are net-Negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Note reference to 'human acts' ONLY, not non-human acts.

To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.

So 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.

Therefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
not all human brains have similar neural connections

many human brains function without certain neural connections... and no, not all human brains function the same

human brains are as unique as the individuals which possess them

-Imp
Not sure if you missed my points or you are ignorant of human nature.
btw, no human brains or any brain can function without neural connections.

All humans are "programmed" [encoded in the DNA] with the basic qualities of what it takes to be uniquely human in contrast to non-humans.
Note a 2% difference in the DNA code could make the difference between a human and a Chimpanzee.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet ... difference

Therefore all humans has the same basic neural potential [connections] when they are born as per the encoded human DNA [not a chimp DNA].

However what makes each individual unique is in the way the synapses are connected later after birth and during the person's exposure in his lifetime.
In general, each human brain has 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 connectors.
A similar neural set exists in the visceral regions.

Whilst the fundamental and basic set-up is always the same in all humans, the subsequent connections of the 10,000 synapses from 100 billion neurons [imaging the possible combinations :shock: ] give rise to an infinite unique human neural combinations.
Thus the neural set-up of the anger emotion [as 'programmed'] in every human is the same, but the ways, degrees or indifference one express anger will not be the same, thus the uniqueness.

So you need to note my point in the OP,
"Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil." "
with emphasis on the term 'potential'.
This embedded potential may not be realized or if realized will definitely in different ways and degrees in each individual.
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Lacewing
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Lacewing »

V.A... I'm trying to understand your points and how they weave together, but please don't be defensive.

It would seem reasonable to think that people are born with all kinds of potential, but whether or not it is ever expressed in a person's character is a huge variable.

I agree with some of what you suggest... but unsure about some.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.
Some theists may do this for this reason. But I don't think most theists are struggling with evil inclinations. Many are brought into theism through their families... and they're good people, even if brainwashed.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 amSo 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.
I agree with this. Theism creates and perpetuates much of the evil it opposes. It is bizarre. I wish theists could see and acknowledge this. Such self-fulfilling prophecies are destructive for the world, and would likely not exist to such a degree if theists weren't creating and fulfilling them! :)
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 amTherefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
So, are we kind of saying the same thing?

Are humans generally more inclined to choose goodness, even though the potential for evil exists in them? Therefore, theism is not actually needed to 'guide' humans -- and, instead, it actually creates more of that which it claims resistance to, in order to justify its validity?

Suddenly, this image comes to mind: Someone vandalizing a home in order to sell a security system. :)
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Impenitent »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:10 am
Impenitent wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:34 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
'Evil' is whatever human acts that are net-Negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Note reference to 'human acts' ONLY, not non-human acts.

To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.

So 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.

Therefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
not all human brains have similar neural connections

many human brains function without certain neural connections... and no, not all human brains function the same

human brains are as unique as the individuals which possess them

-Imp
Not sure if you missed my points or you are ignorant of human nature.
btw, no human brains or any brain can function without neural connections.

All humans are "programmed" [encoded in the DNA] with the basic qualities of what it takes to be uniquely human in contrast to non-humans.
Note a 2% difference in the DNA code could make the difference between a human and a Chimpanzee.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet ... difference

Therefore all humans has the same basic neural potential [connections] when they are born as per the encoded human DNA [not a chimp DNA].

However what makes each individual unique is in the way the synapses are connected later after birth and during the person's exposure in his lifetime.
In general, each human brain has 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 connectors.
A similar neural set exists in the visceral regions.

Whilst the fundamental and basic set-up is always the same in all humans, the subsequent connections of the 10,000 synapses from 100 billion neurons [imaging the possible combinations :shock: ] give rise to an infinite unique human neural combinations.
Thus the neural set-up of the anger emotion [as 'programmed'] in every human is the same, but the ways, degrees or indifference one express anger will not be the same, thus the uniqueness.

So you need to note my point in the OP,
"Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil." "
with emphasis on the term 'potential'.
This embedded potential may not be realized or if realized will definitely in different ways and degrees in each individual.
ignorant of human nature?

EVERY human has this nature?

have you ever met a human with autism? have you ever met a human with downs? have you ever met a human with dyslexia or other learning disability?

I guess they are not human

-Imp
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:23 pm V.A... I'm trying to understand your points and how they weave together, but please don't be defensive.

It would seem reasonable to think that people are born with all kinds of potential, but whether or not it is ever expressed in a person's character is a huge variable.

I agree with some of what you suggest... but unsure about some.
In general my philosophical compass is guided by whatever is reasonably valid and sound arguments and not by emotions nor blind faith.

One can extrapolate from the obvious examples.

All humans are born with the potential for a sexual drive [the mental program and physical features in place at birth] but the fuller sexual potential is only manifested evidently during and after puberty as triggered by various hormones [also a potential to be released in greater qty during puberty].
But as evident this sexual potential in ALL humans is not manifested fully in all humans, due to various reasons, i.e. internal and external.

There are other obvious examples, i.e. self-awareness, intelligence, impulse controls and the lesser obvious ones like potential for evil, morality, continuous improvement, good over evil.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.
Some theists may do this for this reason. But I don't think most theists are struggling with evil inclinations. Many are brought into theism through their families... and they're good people, even if brainwashed.
Agree on the above, yes, most are not triggered by evil elements.
Some are 'religious' via their family traditions, but many are born-again when certain existential and evil elements are triggered to self-volunteer to be religious.

However note what is evil [net-negativity to well-being] comes in degrees. Thus the impulse to lie, cheat, corrupt, sexual thoughts, etc. are the lesser evil in contrast to say kill humans, rape, terrible violence and the likes.
Some may think their God will guide them not to commit the lesser evils.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 amTherefore it is only through the understanding and grasping of the above knowledge that humanity can begin to resolve [mitigate to the minimum] all human related evil acts.
So, are we kind of saying the same thing?

Are humans generally more inclined to choose goodness, even though the potential for evil exists in them? Therefore, theism is not actually needed to 'guide' humans -- and, instead, it actually creates more of that which it claims resistance to, in order to justify its validity?

Suddenly, this image comes to mind: Someone vandalizing a home in order to sell a security system. :)
Fortunately ALL humans [all species] are also "programmed" with the potential for a net-good over evil. Without such a program [good over evil], it would imply the destiny of a species would be heading to extinction the moment it emerged.

But as natural, such a 'good over evil' program is NOT very active in most human but nevertheless the impulse is very basic and minimal, that is why the majority of humans do not kill other humans, violent nor commit terrible evil acts. Such a minimal standard is thus insufficient to prevent the terrible evils acts from being committed by a significant minority . [1% of humans = 80 million or 800 million for a likely 10% :shock: ]

In general theism [collectively] is motivated by the inherent 'good over evil' program which is very obvious from the intents in their texts.
The problem with theism is, instead of allowing "good over evil" to be dynamic to changes in time [evolution, various conditions] theistic religions define their own 'good' and 'evil' as from God and make such maxims immutable thus cannot cope with inevitable changes in time.

Take Islam for example, what is 'good' [defined & immutable] is only 'good' for Muslims but in general is "evil" from humanity's perspective in general . E.g. it is good [highly rewarded] for any Muslims to kill [or commit other sanctioned evil acts on] non-Muslims.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas We are not 'programmed' with the potential for evil; we are 'programmed' with the potential to evaluate abstract qualities.
As far as we know there is no other life form that does this. Certainly, nature itself doe not evaluate, as evaluation implies final cause.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Scott Mayers »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:23 pm V.A... I'm trying to understand your points and how they weave together, but please don't be defensive.

It would seem reasonable to think that people are born with all kinds of potential, but whether or not it is ever expressed in a person's character is a huge variable.

I agree with some of what you suggest... but unsure about some.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am To manage [soothe] the desperate manifestations of 'evil' and sufferings within oneself, the majority of individual humans resort to create the idea of a God in their brain and mind.
Some theists may do this for this reason. But I don't think most theists are struggling with evil inclinations. Many are brought into theism through their families... and they're good people, even if brainwashed.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 amSo 'Satan' is not "out there" but is inside the theists' brain and mind.
I agree with this. Theism creates and perpetuates much of the evil it opposes. It is bizarre. I wish theists could see and acknowledge this. Such self-fulfilling prophecies are destructive for the world, and would likely not exist to such a degree if theists weren't creating and fulfilling them! :)
I notice by many I know who were 'less' religious but have become 'more' religious, that there seems to be a correlation of some guilt involved. It also seems that the more 'right-wing' they are, the more extreme they tend to embrace some form of literalism (or 'fundamentalism'). This may be related to the fact that Right-wing politics is actually more Social Darwinian, a kind of contradiction when they also go against biological Darwinism. But it makes sense that if one is acting more abnormally 'selfish', this cannot be normally justified religiously without reinterpreting the religion in some extremely odd ways. By embracing more absurd belief systems, it helps to justify themselves for continuing to be who they are regardless.

But note that I also think that the Left also happens to have many similar conservative groups there who happen only to be embracing the politics that favor 'democratic' power of those cultures less empowered. But for the average members there, many are 'liberal' religiously where given their religions are 'open' to interpretation when their original religions were generally more conservative about what it is they are wanting liberation from. [Example: gay marriage advocates of religions that are generally against it historically even though they may not take most of their other scriptures literally. Trying to get secular laws changed is about trying to force change in their family religions.]

In general, religion is a means to isolate the rational justification for one's "sins" in a way that they are unable to be challenged publicly. If their 'home' religion is against them as being 'sinful', they embrace the liberal interpretation and favor the Left-wing ideals; if they are more obviously or inescapably 'sinful' but the general system's laws have favored them technically thus far, they embrace the apparently non-liberal forms of religion but have to select those religions that are also irrationally in support of 'sin' in contradictory ways.

Those who are generally 'religious' but more sincere, will tend to be central politically, and will embrace a generally rational respect of religion that is more moderate or that have partial extremes but open-ended with respect to other religions.

No political ideology (in the West) directly admits of being athiest given this is assumed to be immoral or lacking fixed universal values. Athiests on the extreme Right will more likely be the ones leading the flocks there: Conservative business favors the ease of those able to be manipulated more and so I wouldn't doubt that many of the extreme leaders their who are athiestic would pretend to be for its opportunistic advantage. Atheists on the extreme left would nevertheless embrace secular-religiousity based upon some mixed cultural-genetic heritage, like strong feminism or pseudo-racist favoritisms.

In general, I agree with V.A. regarding the comments you responded to because regardless of what kind of derrogatory behavior one embraces, there is a need for one to 'save' face by latching onto some belief that is sufficiently remote enough to prevent accountability. The athiestic-like forms of religion that I mentioned would use the accountability of actual data, like statistics, but selectively pick and interpret them in ways that appear sufficiently 'accountable' but lack specifically unique interpretations.

I do not think that people need any religion if they are in general able to be provisionally fair to others and less hypocritical in their own reflective behavior. But this doesn't mean they would assert being athiest. They might just be more adaptively supportive to whichever their familiar environment lies in.
owl of Minerva
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by owl of Minerva »

All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil
Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am

……………………………………………………………

By owl of Minerva:

Programmed by what or by whom? Humans being specifically programmed for the potential for evil is fantasy. While nature is blameless it operates according to laws, and animals according to instinct. If an animal kills it is not a crime if a human kills it is. To blame it on being programmed with the potential for evil or on algorithms is silly and dangerous in equal measure.

God as a creation of the human mind to sooth the conscience is a lack of understanding of what conscience is. If a person feels evil per your thesis, the thought of God would be more liable to create anguish rather than being soothed. Satan is not a creation of theists. If evil exists per your thesis why then would any particular group have to create it? Much less give it a name.

What is necessary for humans to manage or mitigate evil acts is to stop doing them. Humans, unlike animals, have in addition to instinct, intelligence and choice. People can commit genocide but they do not have to. To blame God or the devil {or an algorithm} is escapism. There is nothing in your thesis to be understood or that merits understanding. What is needed is to take responsibility for actions and stop coming up with excuses.

If your thesis was meant to be taken as a spoof or attention getter then ignore this serious response.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:40 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil
Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am

……………………………………………………………

By owl of Minerva:

Programmed by what or by whom? Humans being specifically programmed for the potential for evil is fantasy. While nature is blameless it operates according to laws, and animals according to instinct. If an animal kills it is not a crime if a human kills it is. To blame it on being programmed with the potential for evil or on algorithms is silly and dangerous in equal measure.
Note the following I posted in another thread;
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:22 am What do you mean by "inherently programmed" within all humans via evolution?
ALL humans are "inherently programmed" for the potential puberty which remain dormant and unfold when the individual reaches puberty age.
This is proof all humans are "inherently programmed" with certain potentials which unfold in various stages of their life.

Note all humans are also "inherently programmed" with the potential for intelligence and this had been slowly unfold since 200,000 till the present average IQ.

Just as the above, all human are also "inherently programmed" with the potential for natural morality which is not easily noticeable and also evil.
As a 'programmer' I ask U ...what CAUSED this programming within evolution?
My approach is top-down [from experience and observations to inference] not bottom-up [assuming there is a programmer].

Note 'program' in this case is 'a potential for systematic set of activities in the human brain /mind and body.'

It is very natural for humans to acquire certain "programs" significantly from nurturing conditions alone. For example a normal child exposed to a very 'bad' environment will likely turned out to be a gangster, a thief, violent, and other negative traits.
So what cause this 'programming' of the person to commit 'evil' acts [i.e. re Nurture] is the environmental conditions he was and is in.

So to your question re inherent nature Morality, what cause the 'programming' of the traits of 'Nature' [opp. nurture] is also due to the environmental conditions, the human species was exposed to in its 200,000 years of existence and the traits inherited from its ancestors from 4 billion years ago.
God as a creation of the human mind to sooth the conscience is a lack of understanding of what conscience is. If a person feels evil per your thesis, the thought of God would be more liable to create anguish rather than being soothed. Satan is not a creation of theists. If evil exists per your thesis why then would any particular group have to create it? Much less give it a name.
I stated the potential for evil is "programmed" within all humans.
I have to mention, the potential for good is also "programmed" within all humans and the good will always prevail over 'evil' in the long run.
To ensure the good prevails, the potential and impulses of evil has to be inhibited and modulated, that is why the majority of humans do not go about killing humans willy-nilly.

Nature is never perfect, as such, there will be a percentage of humans where the inhibition and modulation of the evil impulses are not effective in a range of degrees.
It is not that a particular group create evil, but evil is manifested evidently in humans who have ineffective inhibitions and humans thus classified these acts as 'evil'.
Note https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concept-evil/
What is necessary for humans to manage or mitigate evil acts is to stop doing them. Humans, unlike animals, have in addition to instinct, intelligence and choice. People can commit genocide but they do not have to. To blame God or the devil {or an algorithm} is escapism. There is nothing in your thesis to be understood or that merits understanding. What is needed is to take responsibility for actions and stop coming up with excuses.

If your thesis was meant to be taken as a spoof or attention getter then ignore this serious response.
My view is, it is impossible for God to exists as real.
Thus there is no real God for me to blame re evil.
Evil is manifested from humans who has ineffective inhibitors to suppress and modulate the evil impulses from the inherent evil within humans themselves.
What is needed is to take responsibility for actions and stop coming up with excuses.
How are you going to go about doing that? What sorts of strategies [seriously] will you employ that is applicable to all humans on Earth?

I would first focus on an efficient Problem Solving Technique.

What is critical with my theory is;
1. the manifestations of evil has root causes, i.e. grounded on the 'programmed' inherent potential within the DNA/brains/mind of all human beings.
2. why evil manifest is because of the ineffectiveness of inhibitors to suppress and modulate the evil impulses from within the evil prone person.

So if we understand the root causes and the mechanics of evil, we need to take actions to strengthen the specific inhibitors and modulators so that the evil impulses do not prevail and dominate the person.

To enable to achieve the above humanity will have to understand how the mechanics of evil works and how the inhibitors failed, therefrom establish solutions to rewire the relevant neural connectivity to strengthen the relevant inhibitors.
I am optimistic the above can be done due to this potential,
http://www.humanconnectomeproject.org/

Btw, humanity has already been tackling evil and establishing strategies [non-theistic] to overcome evil long ago but they are not very effective because they are based on a 'black-box' approach rather than addressing the root causes.
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