All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Walker wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:11 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:58 am I would avoid the term 'absolute' in the absolutely-absolute sense.
How else is one to consider the implications of light speed?
The speed of light is absolute but it is a relative-absolute within the conditions of the Framework and System Physics. It is the same with absolute temperature.
Elsewhere there is absolute monarch, absolute whatever, but they are all conditional-absolutes.

If you have qualified your 'absolute' to the above, then I agree, but it is unnecessary in this case to avoid any rhetorical sliding to the absolutely-absolute.

They is no absolutely-absolute, i.e. the absolute that is not conditioned upon anything at all as claimed for God [btw is illusory].
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:40 pm By Veritas Acquitas:


“Btw, humanity has already been tackling evil and establishing strategies [non-theistic] to overcome evil long ago but they are not very effective because they are based on a 'black-box' approach rather than addressing the root causes. “

…………………………………………………………

By owl of Minerva:

Now that I know that this addresses a problem in philosophy {not a spoof} I will address it seriously. I have read with respect and attention your post. I reject programming in the universal sense; that anything, a deity or an algorithm programed humans initially. Evolution seen differently; as emergent from what was already there from the beginning not programed with either relative good or evil which result from immersion in nature; the effect of environment, which realistically does program. It leaves grooves in the brain, reinforced by action, which can be compared to algorithms.
You did not follow up with my "programmed" in " ".
I agree evolution in the 'emergent' sense and the "programs" related 'good' and 'evil' emerged in the course of evolution of living things to humans.
As such this potential for evil "programmed" via evolution is an emergent not something that is pre-existing unconditionally.
The Adam and Eve story sounds silly. But if we analysis it to imply that initially there was a positive {Adam} force which had a rib {rib means vibration} taken from its side {Eve} there are now two forces and consequently a neutral force; the space between their polarity. Why did this happen is the question. We can believe or disbelieve in a deity {whose motive will always be obscure} to human reason or we can believe it as something that just happened. If a compassionate deity allowed it, allowing the weak force to become nature, with the three: strong, neutral and weak forces animating it from within saw the consequences, the programming and hardships that would follow, then it would have to be a projection or a dream.
This is not relevant to the OP re emergences of whatever via the course of evolution.
A real or a compassionate deity would not make it real other than perception which is real enough. If there is a payoff at the end, fully conscious entities who find themselves in reality at the center of the universe as Leonardo and Hildegarde perceived it, maybe we could accept that: an ordeal whose end purpose justified it. That may be speculation and all that can realistically be done about motive and God. What is clear is to have a cosmos there has to be dual forces. It has to be either dual and relative or non-dual and absolute. There does not appear to be any other way. Maybe dual and all good but that is not dual it is absolute so why bother if there is already an absolute and even if there is not, once we have dual forces the rest follows.
Any deity is off topic to the OP.
To move on to the other ways evil is viewed: They all rest on the nature of reality. Good and Evil as a the result of dual forces. Abssolute {one} good or neutral force becomes relative. It may be good to lie in one instance; to save someone, and evil to lie in another instance; to harm someone. So evil is also relative. There are no absolutes in the relatives of duality. They are case specific.
All humans are programmed with the inherent of 'good' and 'evil' as emergents via the course of evolution but the potential for 'good' has an edge over 'evil'. 'Evil' is a kind of perversion of life and eventually must be suppressed and managed effectively.
The Manichaeans dualism rightly saw good and evil as the nature of reality: dual forces. They saw this not as a dream or play of a deity but something that was out of the deity’s control. The Neoplatonist approach is more realistic: Evil as the privation of substance: the weak force. In nature it leads to dissolution after a period of time. In humans it leads to choosing wrong over right in whatever situation they find themselves in where one of the other is the only choice. To kill or not to kill, to betray or not to, to undermine and destroy a rival or not to, etc.
Actually in life there are necessary opposing forces. What is "evil" is when any of the forces is a net-negative to the well being of the individual and therefrom to humanity.
Thus 'killing' is not necessary an evil force if it is a net-good to the well being of the individual[s] and humanity.
But to establish a system of optimal life, we have to adopt 'killing' as absolutely 'negative' as justified, but this is merely to be a guide only.
So natural evils; Evil and God; Evil Skepticism etc. would take a book to address. One can be addressed here, Nietzsche’s attack on Evil Concept as a having a negative effect on human potential and vitality by promoting the weak in spirit. Energy is conserved, not created or destroyed. So the question becomes who has the most conserved energy; the person who uses human potential and vitality to succumb to evil or the person who uses human potential and vitality to resist it?
As stated there are necessary opposing forces in life. The optimal life is where one can balance these opposing forces without any net-negativity to the individual[s] and humanity. Note the Middle-Way of Buddhism and others.

What is evil [as defined] is when one of the forces turn into a perversion that is net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and humanity.

The Problem to be resolved is how to understand what are these opposing forces and how to prevent any of them being turned into perversions.
So our task in solving the above is to establish the most effective Problem Technique, i.e.
  • 1. To define the Problem precisely.
    2. Understand the whole process.
    3. Dig out the root causes
    4. Find solutions to resolve the root causes
    5. Implement the solution,
    6. Monitor the results
    7. Establish a feed back control to ensure continual improvements.
So far you are merely talking but does not offer any pathway to identify the problem specifically and offer solutions at least on a theoretical basis.
owl of Minerva
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by owl of Minerva »

By Veritas Acquitas:

As stated there are necessary opposing forces in life. The optimal life is where one can balance these opposing forces without any net-negativity to the individual[s] and humanity. Note the Middle-Way of Buddhism and others.

What is evil [as defined] is when one of the forces turn into a perversion that is net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and humanity.

The Problem to be resolved is how to understand what are these opposing forces and how to prevent any of them being turned into perversions.
So our task in solving the above is to establish the most effective Problem Technique, i.e.
1. To define the Problem precisely.
2. Understand the whole process.
3. Dig out the root causes
4. Find solutions to resolve the root causes
5. Implement the solution,
6. Monitor the results
7. Establish a feed back control to ensure continual improvements.
So far you are merely talking but does not offer any pathway to identify the problem specifically and offer solutions at least on a theoretical basis.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Response by owl of Minerva:

A continuation of my previous post. The Middle Way is the neutral force. One of the forces “does not turn into a perversion” as you state. It is the weak force and always was in duality in relation to the strong and the neutral. Nothing turns, forces are, they do not turn. The only way for them not to turn into perversions is for humans not to turn them into perversions.

Your list is meaningless. Do we establish a dictatorship or neuroscientists reprogram the brain. “Establish feedback control to ensure continued improvements” is chilling.

You misunderstand the nature of reality, the three forces, where they came from, and humanities role in evolution.

As Anaximander said: “things are transformed one into another according to necessity and render justice to one another according to the order of time.”

From the perspective of mathematics we start with one, then two, then three. We are discussing three, consider one and two prior to three. We do not start with the polarity of duality, things are already underway at that point. Science will likely find a prior polarity responsible for the polarity, and hence, duality of the strong and weak forces which are modified by the neutral force.

You appear to be blaming the forces as the source of the problem. To “establish feedback control to ensure continued improvements” is chilling and meaningless in equal measure.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:21 pm By Veritas Acquitas:

As stated there are necessary opposing forces in life. The optimal life is where one can balance these opposing forces without any net-negativity to the individual[s] and humanity. Note the Middle-Way of Buddhism and others.

What is evil [as defined] is when one of the forces turn into a perversion that is net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and humanity.

The Problem to be resolved is how to understand what are these opposing forces and how to prevent any of them being turned into perversions.
So our task in solving the above is to establish the most effective Problem Technique, i.e.
1. To define the Problem precisely.
2. Understand the whole process.
3. Dig out the root causes
4. Find solutions to resolve the root causes
5. Implement the solution,
6. Monitor the results
7. Establish a feed back control to ensure continual improvements.
So far you are merely talking but does not offer any pathway to identify the problem specifically and offer solutions at least on a theoretical basis.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Response by owl of Minerva:

A continuation of my previous post. The Middle Way is the neutral force. One of the forces “does not turn into a perversion” as you state. It is the weak force and always was in duality in relation to the strong and the neutral. Nothing turns, forces are, they do not turn. The only way for them not to turn into perversions is for humans not to turn them into perversions.
Nah, you got it wrong!

A good example of the Middle-Way as in Buddhism is Tightrope Walking.

Image

Life is faced with opposing forces like the tightrope walker who had to adapt to the varying forces BUT the main focus is to always strive to stay in the center, i.e. the Middle-Way.
Similar in human life one cannot be too extreme in anything, e.g. food, sex, work, money, drugs and whatever, but always must maintain a balance.

In your case, a person is always exposed to weak and strong forces, but one should not allow either one to dominate but one must rather maintain equilibrium and balance in the middle of whatever the two-opposing-forces, e.g. a balanced diet, etc.
Your list is meaningless. Do we establish a dictatorship or neuroscientists reprogram the brain. “Establish feedback control to ensure continued improvements” is chilling.
Surprised you are so ignorant of this.
The above is the most effective generic model tool of Problem Solving.
https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/problem-solving.html
If humanity do not have people with effective Problem Solving Skill, humanity will be going down the drain.

If you have solved any problem effectively in your life you would have used the above model somewhat implicitly and ignorantly.
If you have a power failure at home or other problems, you would have applied the above generic model.
If you have been sick and recovered via a doctor, he would have applied the above model.
Otherwise you would have relied on a hit and missed faith healer.

Do you still insist the above is meaningless especially you are implicitly and ignorant applying it at times to resolve various problems.

Like any tool [like a two side blade] it can cut both ways.
You seem to ignore there is the Philosophy of Morality [you are ignorant of this?] to ensure humans do good and avoid evil.
See Philosophy of Morality in this forum: viewforum.php?f=8
You misunderstand the nature of reality, the three forces, where they came from, and humanities role in evolution.

As Anaximander said: “things are transformed one into another according to necessity and render justice to one another according to the order of time.”
This is irrelevant to the Middle-Way re Buddhism as I had introduced earlier and above.
From the perspective of mathematics we start with one, then two, then three. We are discussing three, consider one and two prior to three. We do not start with the polarity of duality, things are already underway at that point. Science will likely find a prior polarity responsible for the polarity, and hence, duality of the strong and weak forces which are modified by the neutral force.

You appear to be blaming the forces as the source of the problem. To “establish feedback control to ensure continued improvements” is chilling and meaningless in equal measure.
How come you have a one-track mind, i.e. continuous improvement is only applicable to improving evil? Those whose minds are filled with and dominated 'evil' are psychopaths, you have to ensure you are not one.
Continuous improvement of 'good' seem impossible to you?

So far you seem to be very indifferent to the Problem of Evil, and have not made any suggestions nor proposals on how to resolve and mitigate evil.

If you want to start resolving evil and to be very effective at it you have no choice but to use the following generic model of Problem Solving [you insisted is meaningless], i.e.
  • 1. To define the Problem of Evil precisely.
    2. Understand the whole process, the mechanics of Evil
    3. Dig out the root causes of evil
    4. Find solutions to resolve the root causes of evil
    5. Implement the solution to resolve the Problem of Evil
    6. Monitor the results -reduction in Evilness
    7. Establish a feed back control to ensure continual improvements in the continual reduction of Evil.
You still insist the above is meaningless?

Btw, use the "Quote" function in your reply, else I will not be notify our your response, so you post must begin with this;
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:11 am...
owl of Minerva
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by owl of Minerva »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
How come you have a one-track mind, i.e. continuous improvement is only applicable to improving evil? Those whose minds are filled with and dominated 'evil' are psychopaths, you have to ensure you are not one.
Continuous improvement of 'good' seem impossible to you?

So far you seem to be very indifferent to the Problem of Evil, and have not made any suggestions nor proposals on how to resolve and mitigate evil.

If you want to start resolving evil and to be very effective at it you have no choice but to use the following generic model of Problem Solving [you insisted is meaningless], i.e.
1. To define the Problem of Evil precisely.
2. Understand the whole process, the mechanics of Evil
3. Dig out the root causes of evil
4. Find solutions to resolve the root causes of evil
5. Implement the solution to resolve the Problem of Evil
6. Monitor the results -reduction in Evilness
7. Establish a feed back control to ensure continual improvements in the continual reduction of Evil.
You still insist the above is meaningless?

Btw, use the "Quote" function in your reply, else I will not be notify our your response, so you post must begin with this;
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:11 am
...
Top
Post Reply

By owl of Minerva:

You appear to misunderstand what I wrote. My position is as follows: I understand the Middle Way and what Buddhism is. It is about reconciling the polarities of intelligence and sense mind. Buddhi means intelligence, hence the name Buddha who reconciled the polarity of sense mind and intelligence into Intelligence by using the Middle Way. The polarity was not reconciled into an Absolute as the mind was not transcended, hence it is a philosophy not a religion. He accomplished this by dispassion. By viewing arising thoughts dispassionately he was not not carried away by them but maintained his presence of mind which leads to right discrimination and the intelligence of right action. This mitigates suffering.

I am certainly not in favor of evil. I do not know how you arrived at that conclusion. As I described above the internal struggle is between intelligence and sense perception and identification with what arises in the mind or in the environment for good or ill. In nature the strong force and weak forces are mitigated by the neutral force. In the mind the ego is the neutral force. “Resist not evil by evil but by good.” Is a philosophy. If that is adhered to it is a way of mitigating evil. We do not have control over our environments or over other people’s minds. All we can do is do right in whatever situation we are in.

It is not a middle management problem where we can develop a strategy and banish evil from the face of the earth, it is not that simple. It would be great if it was. Personal good and collective good can mitigate evil and augment good.

We can only reduce evil and augment good by our actions. We did not create good or evil any more than we created consciousness. We have consciousness. We are not consciousness itself. We have it as a derisive. We experience good and evil we are not good or evil unless and until we identify ourselves with one or the other by our actions.

PS. I just switched from Word to Mac and am adjusting to the quote function.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:20 pm.
Somehow I missed this post because there was no notification.

To respond to any post, click the ["] [reply to post] at the top right hand corner.
Then you edit to ensure every para you respond to is enclosed by '[.quote] and closed with [./quote]. e.g.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:11 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:21 pm
By Veritas Acquitas:
As stated there are necessary opposing forces in life. The optimal life is where one can balance these opposing forces without any net-negativity to the individual[s] and humanity.
....


You appear to misunderstand what I wrote. My position is as follows: I understand the Middle Way and what Buddhism is. It is about reconciling the polarities of intelligence and sense mind. Buddhi means intelligence, hence the name Buddha who reconciled the polarity of sense mind and intelligence into Intelligence by using the Middle Way. The polarity was not reconciled into an Absolute as the mind was not transcended, hence it is a philosophy not a religion. He accomplished this by dispassion. By viewing arising thoughts dispassionately he was not not carried away by them but maintained his presence of mind which leads to right discrimination and the intelligence of right action. This mitigates suffering.
Buddhi means intelligence and the Buddha is promoting the use of this intelligence to strive along the Middle Way between basically sense mind and crude-reasoning [not intelligence] plus to balance all the opposing forces of life.
It is the crude-reasoning that steer one towards eternalism of a God and soul that survives physical death like those beliefs of the Abrahamic religions.
I am certainly not in favor of evil. I do not know how you arrived at that conclusion. As I described above the internal struggle is between intelligence and sense perception and identification with what arises in the mind or in the environment for good or ill. In nature the strong force and weak forces are mitigated by the neutral force. In the mind the ego is the neutral force. “Resist not evil by evil but by good.” Is a philosophy. If that is adhered to it is a way of mitigating evil. We do not have control over our environments or over other people’s minds. All we can do is do right in whatever situation we are in.
I proposed a generic Problem Solving Technique to resolve and mitigate evil but you insist it is meaningless. This technique is the same as the 4 Noble Truths as a generic problem solving tool to resolve evils and sufferings. i.e.
1. Sufferings [evil] exists
2. Search the roots of sufferings
3. Sufferings can be resolved
4. Solutions to resolve the sufferings
If you are not interested in this it appear you are not interested in resolving evil.

It is not a middle management problem where we can develop a strategy and banish evil from the face of the earth, it is not that simple. It would be great if it was. Personal good and collective good can mitigate evil and augment good.
Point is if there is a problem, in this case the Problem of Evil, we have to address and attempt to resolve it.
The only way to resolve the problem effectively is to use an effective Problem Solving Technique, there is no other effective solutions. The 4 Noble Truths is a good technique but it is too general and not as refined as the generic one I proposed.

You stated;
"Personal good and collective good can mitigate evil and augment good."
The above is merely a standard but no effective solutions to be implemented to resolve the problem of evil.
Point is your above statement implied the existence of a problem to be resolved.
The only way to resolve that problem is to apply an effective Problem Solving Technique like the one I proposed but you insisted it is meaningless.
We can only reduce evil and augment good by our actions. We did not create good or evil any more than we created consciousness. We have consciousness. We are not consciousness itself. We have it as a derisive. We experience good and evil we are not good or evil unless and until we identify ourselves with one or the other by our actions.

PS. I just switched from Word to Mac and am adjusting to the quote function.
Your above are also merely statement but not effective solutions for implementations.
Regardless to get into solution for implementation you have to use an effective Problem Solving Technique as the one I proposed above.

You can still use Word, i.e.
In the post click the " box at the top right hand corner.
Copy the whole thing to Word.
Color it with one color say blue
Then ensure every para you choose to respond to is enclose by the relevant [_quote] and [./quote].
Your reply can be 'black' or any other color.
Then copy the whole lot to the reply process.
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RCSaunders
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Why is that, "good?" What's so special about humanity and who declared the existence of humanity the objective of all value?
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by owl of Minerva »

By owl of Minerva in response to Veritas Acquitas:

I indicated that the Buddha identified with intelligence; the strong force as opposed to the mind; the weak force. Reasoning is a function of the mind, a process not a force.

I disagree with your assessment of the Abrahamic religions. They are based on the revelations of prophets or of an Avatar who comes at the end of an era to define the next era and offer guidance. Over time the revelation is misinterpreted, which is why in the East a search for truth is based on meditation with the help of a spiritual guide. To reconcile the processes of Knowing, Knower, and Knower into One. The masses follow scripture and ritual in both East and West.

The Buddha did not transcend the mind. He used the Middle Way and identified with intelligence, the strong force. The Lamas replace each other and serve in this process staying within the system as guides.

I do not, and have not, disputed any of what is enumerated in your list. What I did dispute and object to is what you had described in a previous post which sounded like some sort of external mind control, the way you had expressed it.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Why is that, "good?" What's so special about humanity and who declared the existence of humanity the objective of all value?
Why is the above definition of 'good' problematic?

If it is not confined to humanity, who else, apes?
The point is there is no way one can extricate the human factor in whatever humans claim as theoretical or for practical purposes.
If otherwise, show me.

The caution is whatever is claimed to be true or knowledge must be soundly justified within a credible framework and system of knowledge plus be overseen by philosophy-proper.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:27 pm By owl of Minerva in response to Veritas Acquitas:

I indicated that the Buddha identified with intelligence; the strong force as opposed to the mind; the weak force. Reasoning is a function of the mind, a process not a force.
If you come up with strong versus weak forces, then Buddhism-proper promote the engagement of both strong and weak forces whilst focusing on the Middle. The point in life is, one is never always in the Middle but toggling between the two opposite forces, note the analogy of the 'tightrope walker' swaying from one side to side with a focus on the middle.
The 'Buddhi' [intelligence] is the competence and skill to balance between the two opposing forces without one getting to either the extreme else one will fail.

Note I mention crude reasoning, not-refined-rational-reasoning.
If it is a process, surely forces are generated.

Here is a point by Kant on the forces of "Pure Crude Reason" to leads one to illusory beliefs'
  • Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them {the illusions}.
    After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him.
    Kant CPR B397
This is why Buddhism is theistic, i.e. it relied on the "Buddhi" to avoid the extreme beliefs in illusory entities such as a God and an independent soul.

I disagree with your assessment of the Abrahamic religions. They are based on the revelations of prophets or of an Avatar who comes at the end of an era to define the next era and offer guidance. Over time the revelation is misinterpreted, which is why in the East a search for truth is based on meditation with the help of a spiritual guide. To reconcile the processes of Knowing, Knower, and Knower into One. The masses follow scripture and ritual in both East and West.
What constituted the doctrines of the Abrahamic religions are their holy texts. Other than Judaism, it is solidly proven that the holy texts of Christianity and Islam in their main themes were represented by the intents of the original founders.
The Buddha did not transcend the mind. He used the Middle Way and identified with intelligence, the strong force. The Lamas replace each other and serve in this process staying within the system as guides.
Your above is way off from the original main intent of the Buddha.
The Buddha introduced the Middle-Way, i.e. the 4 Noble Truths as a generic Problem Solving Technique together with 8 main strategies to be implemented to optimize the well being of the individual[s] and therefor humanity.
Because the technique is generic it can be adapted to different personalities and different environment.
Show me why this point is wrong if you don't agree.
I do not, and have not, disputed any of what is enumerated in your list. What I did dispute and object to is what you had described in a previous post which sounded like some sort of external mind control, the way you had expressed it.
I believe you were too hasty [despite the context I have presented] thus misunderstood my point.
I have this common experience with other members being to hasty and immediately accused me of promoting solipsism, creating a Frankenstein, stupid, dumb and the likes.
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:19 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 am All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil.

Basically, all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Good" but at the same time, specifically to humans,
all humans are 'programmed' with the potential for "Evil."
Such 'programs' exist as 'algorithms' i.e. sets of neurally-connected-system in the brain.

'Good' is whatever human acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity.
Why is that, "good?" What's so special about humanity and who declared the existence of humanity the objective of all value?
There are no intrinsic values. Why is the above definition of 'good' problematic?
Values are terms of relationship. Nothing is just, "good," or, "bad." There must first be some objective, purpose, end, or goal relative to which something is good or bad. You have never identified the objective or goal that mankind is supposedly good for, what purpose mankind's existence serves or end it achieves.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:07 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:19 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:14 pm
Why is that, "good?" What's so special about humanity and who declared the existence of humanity the objective of all value?
There are no intrinsic values. Why is the above definition of 'good' problematic?
Values are terms of relationship. Nothing is just, "good," or, "bad." There must first be some objective, purpose, end, or goal relative to which something is good or bad. You have never identified the objective or goal that mankind is supposedly good for, what purpose mankind's existence serves or end it achieves.
How come you cannot grasp the "objective, purpose, end, or goal relative to which something is good or bad" in my above statement plus I had already stated that many times which is,

"whatever acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity."
I missed out my often mentioned 'optimal' well being.
The objective, purpose, end or goal is the 'optimal well-being of the individual[s]' and that of humanity.

If all the individual[s] in the world do not strive optimize their well-being then it will effect the optimal well-being of humanity.
If killing of humans is a universal [evil], then the well-being of individual[s] will net-negative and therefrom a threat to the optimal well-being of humanity, the threat of the extinction of the species.
While killing of humans is an obvious evilness of >90%, any high frequencies of those acts of lesser degrees of evilness will still pose a threat to the individual[s] and that of humanity.

This is why the basic standard objective of each individual[s] is to breathe and survive optimally till the inevitable; while humanity will rely upon the principles of large number [now nearing 8 billion - there is limitation to this] to ensure its preservation.
owl of Minerva
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by owl of Minerva »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:52 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:27 pm By owl of Minerva in response to Veritas Acquitas:

I indicated that the Buddha identified with intelligence; the strong force as opposed to the mind; the weak force. Reasoning is a function of the mind, a process not a force.
If you come up with strong versus weak forces, then Buddhism-proper promote the engagement of both strong and weak forces whilst focusing on the Middle. The point in life is, one is never always in the Middle but toggling between the two opposite forces, note the analogy of the 'tightrope walker' swaying from one side to side with a focus on the middle.
The 'Buddhi' [intelligence] is the competence and skill to balance between the two opposing forces without one getting to either the extreme else one will fail.

Note I mention crude reasoning, not-refined-rational-reasoning.
If it is a process, surely forces are generated.

Here is a point by Kant on the forces of "Pure Crude Reason" to leads one to illusory beliefs'
  • Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them {the illusions}.
    After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him.
    Kant CPR B397
This is why Buddhism is theistic, i.e. it relied on the "Buddhi" to avoid the extreme beliefs in illusory entities such as a God and an independent soul.

I disagree with your assessment of the Abrahamic religions. They are based on the revelations of prophets or of an Avatar who comes at the end of an era to define the next era and offer guidance. Over time the revelation is misinterpreted, which is why in the East a search for truth is based on meditation with the help of a spiritual guide. To reconcile the processes of Knowing, Knower, and Knower into One. The masses follow scripture and ritual in both East and West.
What constituted the doctrines of the Abrahamic religions are their holy texts. Other than Judaism, it is solidly proven that the holy texts of Christianity and Islam in their main themes were represented by the intents of the original founders.
The Buddha did not transcend the mind. He used the Middle Way and identified with intelligence, the strong force. The Lamas replace each other and serve in this process staying within the system as guides.
Your above is way off from the original main intent of the Buddha.
The Buddha introduced the Middle-Way, i.e. the 4 Noble Truths as a generic Problem Solving Technique together with 8 main strategies to be implemented to optimize the well being of the individual[s] and therefor humanity.
Because the technique is generic it can be adapted to different personalities and different environment.
Show me why this point is wrong if you don't agree.
I do not, and have not, disputed any of what is enumerated in your list. What I did dispute and object to is what you had described in a previous post which sounded like some sort of external mind control, the way you had expressed it.
I believe you were too hasty [despite the context I have presented] thus misunderstood my point.
I have this common experience with other members being to hasty and immediately accused me of promoting solipsism, creating a Frankenstein, stupid, dumb and the likes.
………………………………………..

Response by owl of Minerva:

I am in agreement that intelligence is the mediating factor. That is why I stated that the Buddha identified with intelligence and not with the sense mind; identified with the strong versus the weak force. I thought I had made that point clear.

I do not agree that Buddhism is theistic. Theo is the Greek word for God. I do not think the Buddha was or emphasized a theistic perspective. He advocated the Middle Way as the correct way to live. He was a human, living as a human who identified with intelligence, not the sensory mind. I have no quarrel with the Buddha or his teaching or way of life. It is an excellent philosophy of mind to follow but it is not a religion and the Buddha was not a Theist.

To be God-like is not to be God. As Muslims rightly say: No one can be God but God. A liberated; enlightened human can be one in Consciousness with the Intelligence in the cosmos and with the Intelligence that created the cosmos. This is a Christ or an Eastern Avatar. It is not the Buddha who espoused a philosophy of life. A Middle Way between opposites; the polarity between intelligence and sense mind.

I think you also referred somewhere to physics as ‘just particles.’ It is much more than that. A biologist starts with things and works backwards. A physicist starts at the beginning and works forwards. In the process learns that time and space are things not absolutes. What comes first, a thing or an event. What causes an event to happen, what ends indeterminacy and pauses it into determinacy and what are the implications of that discovery. What moves time, is it energy or entropy. Physics is also likely to discover why the universe is calibrated for life’s existence.

Physics is the more interesting of all the sciences

We have some misunderstandings and some disagreements and may not find mutual ground but discussion helps to clarify our different worldviews.
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RCSaunders
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:30 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:07 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:19 am
There are no intrinsic values. Why is the above definition of 'good' problematic?
Values are terms of relationship. Nothing is just, "good," or, "bad." There must first be some objective, purpose, end, or goal relative to which something is good or bad. You have never identified the objective or goal that mankind is supposedly good for, what purpose mankind's existence serves or end it achieves.
How come you cannot grasp the "objective, purpose, end, or goal relative to which something is good or bad" in my above statement plus I had already stated that many times which is,

"whatever acts that are net-positive to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity."
I missed out my often mentioned 'optimal' well being.
The objective, purpose, end or goal is the 'optimal well-being of the individual[s]' and that of humanity.

If all the individual[s] in the world do not strive optimize their well-being then it will effect the optimal well-being of humanity.
If killing of humans is a universal [evil], then the well-being of individual[s] will net-negative and therefrom a threat to the optimal well-being of humanity, the threat of the extinction of the species.
While killing of humans is an obvious evilness of >90%, any high frequencies of those acts of lesser degrees of evilness will still pose a threat to the individual[s] and that of humanity.

This is why the basic standard objective of each individual[s] is to breathe and survive optimally till the inevitable; while humanity will rely upon the principles of large number [now nearing 8 billion - there is limitation to this] to ensure its preservation.
Who decides what is, "optimal' well being?" Or, for that matter, what is the, "optimal well being?" Optimal for what end or purpose?

You are just replacing some mystical intrinsic, "good," with another mystical value term, "optimal well being." It identifies nothing.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: All Humans are "Programmed" with the Potential for Evil

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

owl of Minerva wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:37 pm Response by owl of Minerva:

I am in agreement that intelligence is the mediating factor. That is why I stated that the Buddha identified with intelligence and not with the sense mind; identified with the strong versus the weak force. I thought I had made that point clear.
OK
I do not agree that Buddhism is theistic. Theo is the Greek word for God. I do not think the Buddha was or emphasized a theistic perspective. He advocated the Middle Way as the correct way to live. He was a human, living as a human who identified with intelligence, not the sensory mind. I have no quarrel with the Buddha or his teaching or way of life. It is an excellent philosophy of mind to follow but it is not a religion and the Buddha was not a Theist.

To be God-like is not to be God. As Muslims rightly say: No one can be God but God. A liberated; enlightened human can be one in Consciousness with the Intelligence in the cosmos and with the Intelligence that created the cosmos. This is a Christ or an Eastern Avatar. It is not the Buddha who espoused a philosophy of life. A Middle Way between opposites; the polarity between intelligence and sense mind.
Oops, sorry I made an omission. Meant to say that Buddhism is non-theistic.
Buddhism in general as practiced by the masses is recognized as a religion-in-general, but its core principles are non-theistic.
I think you also referred somewhere to physics as ‘just particles.’ It is much more than that. A biologist starts with things and works backwards. A physicist starts at the beginning and works forwards. In the process learns that time and space are things not absolutes. What comes first, a thing or an event. What causes an event to happen, what ends indeterminacy and pauses it into determinacy and what are the implications of that discovery. What moves time, is it energy or entropy. Physics is also likely to discover why the universe is calibrated for life’s existence.

Physics is the more interesting of all the sciences

We have some misunderstandings and some disagreements and may not find mutual ground but discussion helps to clarify our different worldviews.
I believe all the sciences start with empirical things and works backward. This is why Popper asserted all scientific truths are at best 'polished conjectures'.

As such Physics is doing just that with observations of the empirical physical world and working backward from the solid universes to atoms, particles and ending with nothing final. Physicists are still trying to find the ultimate particles or substance of reality and I believe they will never ever will find any thing that is ultimate.
The principle i.e. Kantian is there is no such real thing as a thing-in-itself existing independently of the human conditions.

Note Model Dependent Realism;
  • Model-dependent realism is a view of scientific inquiry that focuses on the role of scientific models of phenomena.[1]
    It claims reality should be interpreted based upon these models, and where several models overlap in describing a particular subject, multiple, equally valid, realities exist.
    It claims that it is meaningless to talk about the "true reality" of a model as we can never be absolutely certain of anything.
    The only meaningful thing is the usefulness of the model.[2]
    Wiki
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