A penny for your thoughts...

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Immanuel Can
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Immanuel Can »

Walker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:20 am Branching from that:

A particular “wanting” is simply a predilection put in place by need, whatever the particular need may be.
I don't think that's quite right, though. Some desires, like, say, the desire to eat, are most probably biochemical in origin. But what about the desire to read a book? What about the preference for one woman rather than several others? What about the decision to be a Rastafarian instead of a Catholic or a Hindu? What about the choice of what to type in this email?

Those are much harder cases in which to show any biochemical or survival-value link. One can probably be invented for each, but it will likely sound very strained indeed. "Walker became a Rastafarian because..." because what?
...one then knows all the causes for why one does things, which ends all confusion...
I've never met anyone who can tell you what the causes for all his choices are. Sometimes all he can say is, "I dunno...that's what I wanted." :shock: But I don't think that signals any confusion. If volition can come from the person himself, rather than any prior causes, then it's unsurprising that he can't tell you any prior cause for his choice. It didn't have one. It commenced with his personal volition itself.

That's what we mean when we say, "Walker decided to support the Newcastle Magpies instead of the New Orleans Saints." We don't need a prior cause for such a choice. Perhaps for Walker, it was a level playing field between the two, and he simply chose. Why would we think there even needed to be a prior cause for that?

And in point of fact, nobody acts like their choices aren't real. Nobody. Everybody acts as if they are. So I don't think the supposition that there is always a physical or material cause for volition has any grounds for credibitlity. Observably, that's not how we operate. The burden on anybody who thought differently would be very heavy: namely, to show that without exception, all ...and I mean all...decisions are necessarily traceable to nothing but a chain of prior physical causes. That no decision is ever made, even in part, any other way.

And I think that's a burden that the Determinist cannot even come close to meeting.
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RCSaunders
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by RCSaunders »

Walker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:20 am A particular “wanting” is simply a predilection put in place by need ...
You have that backwards. Desire or want always preceeds need. The person who neither desires or wants anything, needs nothing. To have nothing and to do nothing requires nothing.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

IC wrote: ...
Yes, all the desires that are felt, are necessary to be felt, and the proof is that they are felt. This is not to say that all desires should be indulged, however if not indulged when felt, then that is evidence of the ethical need for a bit of self-control and restraint to not manifest the desire determined as inappropriate to indulge, because that outweighs the need to indulge the desire.

Conflicting needs is usually not a problem for folks, until it is. It is the balancing act. It is a need to live with less than grasping for all the possibilities, i.e., the hamster wheel of necessity that ends up being the tail of the dog that is wagging one’s actions, when feeding desires that have somehow become necessities.

Based on the premise that the root of all problems is self-cherishing … which is true … how does this apply to need?

It applies when need creates an inner conflict between what is, and what should be. How can conflict be created? Lots of ways, and it can manifest in lots of ways, such as the wailing and gnashing of teeth exhibited after Hillary Clinton’s most recent loss, however that wasn’t enough to stop current vapours of a third try for the gold ring. The awesome power of the propaganda machine electing Biden and stifling investigations into how that could be possible could probably sober up Hillary enough to push her over the finish line … but I digress (after making the other point.)

When is conflict caused by desire not evident? When tension during stillness and motion is absent.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:24 pm
Walker wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:20 am A particular “wanting” is simply a predilection put in place by need ...
You have that backwards. Desire or want always preceeds need. The person who neither desires or wants anything, needs nothing. To have nothing and to do nothing requires nothing.
It requires purification to shed the large chunks of ignorance that build up over time, like arsenic in the fatty tissues. A lot of this purification comes about with the attrition of time*, as you likely know, which eventually enables a man to settle back into a hammock without a care in the world, for that eternal moment.

* In many the dividing line is starkly evident and called a mid-life crisis, which occurs when someone finally takes a breather from the grind, looks around, and says what am I doing, and why? Then it's usually off to some change, such as buying a red corvette, taking up a cause, getting a religion, figuring out who is doing the what and why, pointing to errors in others evident to your wisdom, you know the drill, these are well-known tropes ...

:| :wink:
TasteTheInsanity-18
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by TasteTheInsanity-18 »

Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I strongly believe in both.
But, what if you were forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing.

Folks these days, who are justifiably ambivalent about this or this, are being forced to make uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science.
If I were "forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing", I would have to face the penalty, because I could never choose. It's not just a philosophical debate/discussion for me, it's also intertwined into my spiritual beliefs. So I would never cut out one or the other. :)
TasteTheInsanity-18
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by TasteTheInsanity-18 »

Veganman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:51 pm Very well put and extremely well thought out, although I am not entirely in agreement. However, philosophy is not about agreement, it's about presenting a theory in an intelligent way that raises further questions and debate. In respect of this definition of philosophy, although one of many, you have excelled. 🤔
Thank you so much, very kind of you to say :)
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I strongly believe in both.
But, what if you were forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing.
Under what 'real world' situation would one ever be penalized for not choosing one or the other?

And, what possible real penalty would exist?
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am Folks these days, who are justifiably ambivalent about this or this, are being forced to make uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science.
In what situations are people, supposedly, being forced to make "uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science"?

And, would any of those situations be in relation to what is being talked about here?
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:37 am
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I can decide freely when there is a conflict of interest in choosing options. Therefore, I am free.
This is true. However, what you have to choose from is limited AND predetermined as well.

How the fate of the 'True and Right world' actually comes to fruition was because of free will and people FREELY choosing to do the Right things.
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:03 pm The key to the issue is whether or not human will is part of a proper causal explanation of some things.

Just some things. Not everything. But some things.

If a human will can instigate a chain of consequences, then you believe in free will. You say things like, "I decided to...X," or "I want to...Y."

If a human will cannot instigate a chain of consequences, but is itself notihng more than a link in a chain of prior causal events, then you don't believe in free will.

But then you wouldn't say, "I want..." or "I decided..." To speak truth, you'd have to say, "I was made to want X by x-1," or I want to Y because y-1, y-2 and y-3 made me..."
LOL

Anyone can say, "I want ..." or "I decided ..." without 'having to' ever say what you CLAIMED they would HAVE TO say here.

Absolutely EVERY thing BOTH instigates a chain of consequences, AND, is a link in a chain of caused events.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:07 am
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I strongly believe in both.
But, what if you were forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing.
Under what 'real world' situation would one ever be penalized for not choosing one or the other?

And, what possible real penalty would exist?
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am Folks these days, who are justifiably ambivalent about this or this, are being forced to make uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science.

In what situations are people, supposedly, being forced to make "uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science"?

And, would any of those situations be in relation to what is being talked about here?
Man-dating vaccines ... mendates ... mendacious mendates.

(The last time a penny inspired anyone was probably a child in 1937, when a penny piece of candy was rare.)

However, to give out of a spontaneous need to give, rather than because of another's spontaneous need to elicit ... that's the ticket.
Belinda
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Belinda »

Taste the Insanity wrote:
-----we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.

'Free Will' does not 'put you in the driver's seat'. For one thing, so-called 'Free Will' rests on the presumption there is some entity usually called 'the self', which is an uncaused entity. Philosophers dispute any such entity exists. Other philosophers dispute that if such an entity as 'the self' exists it is caused by events before it existed and during the time it exists.

If the self does exist it is not in charge of anything but acts randomly not reasoningly.

BTW Yin and Yang are not opposites. Yin and Yang are complement each other.
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bahman
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:29 am
bahman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:37 am
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I can decide freely when there is a conflict of interest in choosing options. Therefore, I am free.
This is true. However, what you have to choose from is limited AND predetermined as well.

How the fate of the 'True and Right world' actually comes to fruition was because of free will and people FREELY choosing to do the Right things.
You finally agree with one thing that I said! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:09 am
Age wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:07 am
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am
But, what if you were forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing.
Under what 'real world' situation would one ever be penalized for not choosing one or the other?

And, what possible real penalty would exist?
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:17 am Folks these days, who are justifiably ambivalent about this or this, are being forced to make uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science.

In what situations are people, supposedly, being forced to make "uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science"?

And, would any of those situations be in relation to what is being talked about here?
Man-dating vaccines ... mendates ... mendacious mendates.

(The last time a penny inspired anyone was probably a child in 1937, when a penny piece of candy was rare.)

However, to give out of a spontaneous need to give, rather than because of another's spontaneous need to elicit ... that's the ticket.
So, do your 'situations' here have anything to do with 'fate or free will'?

If yes, then what exactly?
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:31 am Taste the Insanity wrote:
-----we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.

'Free Will' does not 'put you in the driver's seat'. For one thing, so-called 'Free Will' rests on the presumption there is some entity usually called 'the self', which is an uncaused entity.
WHY do you PRESUME such a thing?
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:31 am Philosophers dispute any such entity exists.
Other philosophers dispute that if such an entity as 'the self' exists it is caused by events before it existed and during the time it exists.

If the self does exist it is not in charge of anything but acts randomly not reasoningly.
Are 'you' able to answer the question, 'Who am 'I'(the Self)?', properly and correctly?

If no, then how do you KNOW the 'Self' exists or not?
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:31 am BTW Yin and Yang are not opposites. Yin and Yang are complement each other.
What are they, exactly, if they are not opposites?
Age
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:28 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:29 am
bahman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:37 am
I can decide freely when there is a conflict of interest in choosing options. Therefore, I am free.
This is true. However, what you have to choose from is limited AND predetermined as well.

How the fate of the 'True and Right world' actually comes to fruition was because of free will and people FREELY choosing to do the Right things.
You finally agree with one thing that I said! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
What???

Have you not been reading what I have been writing to you?

I have agreed with you before.

I have said to you, on a few occasions actually, that what you are 'trying to' say and express is ACTUALLY True, Right, and Correct, but the way you are expressing 'it' will not work.

Also, I do NOT express I agree with what is being written EVERY time I agree with what is written.

Furthermore, and just so you are AWARE, I challenge and/or question you sometimes on what you write even when I agree TOTALLY with what you have said and written. I challenge and question you on what you write, just to observe how you respond, so that I am continually learning better ways to communicate with 'you', human beings.
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