A penny for your thoughts...

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TasteTheInsanity-18
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:09 pm

A penny for your thoughts...

Post by TasteTheInsanity-18 »

I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
Age
Posts: 20205
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Age »

TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I have said previously more or less the exact same thing.

See, 'you' are the result, or the sum of, all past experiences. However, when old, or mature, enough then one is absolutely FREE to choose to do whatever one wants to do.

Also, just like you say that 'free will' AND 'fate' [determinism] BOTH WORK TOGETHER, so to does creation AND evolution, nature AND nurture, and EVERY other seemingly "one or the other" scenarios actually BOTH WORK TOGETHER. It is NOT the case of one OR the other but that BOTH play an EQUAL part in creating 'Life' and the Universe, Itself.

This polar opposites BOTH WORKING, (or playing), TOGETHER is how thee Universe ACTUALLY WORKS.

The conclusion of GUT (the grand unified theory) is that EVERY thing has an, apparent, opposite, but BOTH are needed and TOGETHER play the part in creating equilibrium, which is what thee One and ONLY Universe IS eternally in, in the HERE-NOW.

It is these polar opposites WHY thee Universe is constantly changing, and thus in the state of eternal CONSTANT-CHANGE.
stevie
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by stevie »

TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites ...
So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I believe in neither because as you say "Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s." and "they are polar opposites".
TasteTheInsanity-18
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:09 pm

Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by TasteTheInsanity-18 »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:47 pm
TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I have said previously more or less the exact same thing.

See, 'you' are the result, or the sum of, all past experiences. However, when old, or mature, enough then one is absolutely FREE to choose to do whatever one wants to do.

Also, just like you say that 'free will' AND 'fate' [determinism] BOTH WORK TOGETHER, so to does creation AND evolution, nature AND nurture, and EVERY other seemingly "one or the other" scenarios actually BOTH WORK TOGETHER. It is NOT the case of one OR the other but that BOTH play an EQUAL part in creating 'Life' and the Universe, Itself.

This polar opposites BOTH WORKING, (or playing), TOGETHER is how thee Universe ACTUALLY WORKS.

The conclusion of GUT (the grand unified theory) is that EVERY thing has an, apparent, opposite, but BOTH are needed and TOGETHER play the part in creating equilibrium, which is what thee One and ONLY Universe IS eternally in, in the HERE-NOW.

It is these polar opposites WHY thee Universe is constantly changing, and thus in the state of eternal CONSTANT-CHANGE.

Age,

Well, it's nice to see that someone agrees to the exact, "Frame-by-frame". I also enjoyed your additional comments that I did not include in my answer, very impressive. PM me sometime if you ever have free time. :)
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm
I strongly believe in both.
But, what if you were forced to choose one or the other, under penalty for not choosing.

Folks these days, who are justifiably ambivalent about this or this, are being forced to make uncertain choices unsupported by reasoning or science.
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bahman
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by bahman »

TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?

Has to be a mystery for now.





So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
I can decide freely when there is a conflict of interest in choosing options. Therefore, I am free.
Impenitent
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Impenitent »

my 2 cents is not purchased so cheaply...

-Imp
Veganman
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Veganman »

Very well put and extremely well thought out, although I am not entirely in agreement. However, philosophy is not about agreement, it's about presenting a theory in an intelligent way that raises further questions and debate. In respect of this definition of philosophy, although one of many, you have excelled. 🤔
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Immanuel Can
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Immanuel Can »

The key to the issue is whether or not human will is part of a proper causal explanation of some things.

Just some things. Not everything. But some things.

If a human will can instigate a chain of consequences, then you believe in free will. You say things like, "I decided to...X," or "I want to...Y."

If a human will cannot instigate a chain of consequences, but is itself notihng more than a link in a chain of prior causal events, then you don't believe in free will.

But then you wouldn't say, "I want..." or "I decided..." To speak truth, you'd have to say, "I was made to want X by x-1," or I want to Y because y-1, y-2 and y-3 made me..."
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:45 am my 2 cents is not purchased so cheaply...

-Imp
3 cents will give you a profit but that's a lot of piece work to make a buck.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:03 pm The key to the issue is whether or not human will is part of a proper causal explanation of some things.

Just some things. Not everything. But some things.

If a human will can instigate a chain of consequences, then you believe in free will. You say things like, "I decided to...X," or "I want to...Y."

If a human will cannot instigate a chain of consequences, but is itself notihng more than a link in a chain of prior causal events, then you don't believe in free will.

But then you wouldn't say, "I want..." or "I decided..." To speak truth, you'd have to say, "I was made to want X by x-1," or I want to Y because y-1, y-2 and y-3 made me..."
But, that explanation moves towards complexity, not simplicity. It moves towards the leaves rather than starting from the root.

Why do folks choose what they choose? Because folks choose what they must choose.

Is this predetermined? In many ways, yes, although the how and why of the predetermination may be obscured. For instance, twins separated at birth have been known to never-the-less exhibit the same tendencies, and there can be evidence of having made the same choices in life both big and small, but is that evidence of biological inherency to make that particular choice?

Not necessarily. Twins separated at birth in the same culture have a limited range of variables that determine conditions. Beatles, or Stones? Bacon, or sausage? Whole wheat, or white?

Of course, examples involving twins are just anecdotal and not a law of nature, since the individual is only one element of constantly changing conditions that contribute to a particular course of action, action that is the definer of choice. After all, action rather than mental machinations actual define choice, after the machinations are done.

Why the deliberations and speculations leading up to action? Because of an uncertain inner dialogue which may take time to clarify the relationships among the detectable elements within a condition, which is fine. Just because it is, does not mean it should not be, nor does it mean that explanations of how are not possible, beginning from any starting point, as of course you know.

Lots of leaves stemming from: folks choose what they must choose.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:37 am I can decide freely when there is a conflict of interest in choosing options. Therefore, I am free.
Anyone is free to choose the option that must be chosen, within any conditions, even conditions such as physical imprisonment.

Or for instance, under conditions of being abandoned by one’s own government in hostile territory, such as what happened because of the inept US withdrawal from Afghanistan under the leadership of Joseph R. Biden, POTUS.

Life is the measure of right or wrong *.

The way I see it, the choices being made by Those Abandoned In Afghanistan, whether they prove to be right or wrong, are being made out of pure necessity, because what’s important has been revealed.


* That's how they finally got to Winston Smith, in 1984, the George Orwell prophecy. He was forced to realize, after all the thinking, that what mattered to him above all else was his own mangy hide.
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Sculptor
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Sculptor »

TasteTheInsanity-18 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm I have a question for you all:
"Do you believe in Fate or Free-Will?"

This is my answer to that question:

I strongly believe in both.
So, does anyone else have any thoughts on the question?
Yes, what you believe is of no importance. The fact is that neither of these things is true. All the facts and evidence point the other way ,and nothing you have typed here begns to support your belief which seems to be n o more than wish fulfilment.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Immanuel Can »

Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:15 pm Why do folks choose what they choose? Because folks choose what they must choose.
Then they don't actually "choose" at all.
Is this predetermined? In many ways, yes,

Predetermination requires that it has to be in ALL ways. Determinism is a totalizing explanation: it cannot tolerate that any case ever involves anything but prior forces. No choice ever can be free. None.

Free will, as I noted earlier, does not deny that some things can be the result of prior forces. No free willian argues, for example, that rocks falling off cliffs "choose" to fall, or that we "choose" the weather. All that's necessary for free will is that SOME cases are not like that. For example, that you "choose" vanilla not chocolate, or that you "choose" your spouse, or that you "choose" to respond to this email...any one of these would be enough.

A free will view can even tolerate that SOME of your decisions are the influenced, in part or in total, by prior forces -- such as that you choose vanilla both because you have a particular stomach enzyme and because you wanted white ice cream, or that hormones had something to do with your predilection for a particular person as partner; but it holds that that is not the complete explanation for all choices...some are made because the individual actually wants to do X or Y, and are not motivated exclusively by prior forces.

And that's actually how everybody thinks the world is. Even the strictest Determinists always act in practice like that's true, even if they declare theoretically otherwise.
Walker
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Re: A penny for your thoughts...

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:44 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:15 pm Why do folks choose what they choose? Because folks choose what they must choose.
Then they don't actually "choose" at all.
Is this predetermined? In many ways, yes,

Predetermination requires that it has to be in ALL ways. Determinism is a totalizing explanation: it cannot tolerate that any case ever involves anything but prior forces. No choice ever can be free. None.

Free will, as I noted earlier, does not deny that some things can be the result of prior forces. No free willian argues, for example, that rocks falling off cliffs "choose" to fall, or that we "choose" the weather. All that's necessary for free will is that SOME cases are not like that. For example, that you "choose" vanilla not chocolate, or that you "choose" your spouse, or that you "choose" to respond to this email...any one of these would be enough.

A free will view can even tolerate that SOME of your decisions are the influenced, in part or in total, by prior forces -- such as that you choose vanilla both because you have a particular stomach enzyme and because you wanted white ice cream, or that hormones had something to do with your predilection for a particular person as partner; but it holds that that is not the complete explanation for all choices...some are made because the individual actually wants to do X or Y, and are not motivated exclusively by prior forces.

And that's actually how everybody thinks the world is. Even the strictest Determinists always act in practice like that's true, even if they declare theoretically otherwise.
Branching from that:

A particular “wanting” is simply a predilection put in place by need, whatever the particular need may be. For instance, I once heard of a child who would eat salt like it was sugar. He had a glitch in his body chemistry and needed ridiculous amounts of salt, so it tasted good to him.

The reason why “know thyself,” is such important advice is because one then knows all the causes for why one does things, which ends all confusion. Without confusion, there is no choice.

Paradoxically, the light of awareness turned on by self-knowledge tends to show up a need for what need really is … physical, like the kid who needed handfuls of delicious salt in order to live, or, like staying alive in Afghanistan highlights intent focused by need. This streamlines needs but then again, a pleasure of life is the variety of thought available for human access.

I've heard that even the angels envy a human birth.
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