No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

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RCSaunders
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No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Your 'true assertions' are empty and meaningless.

What is truth is conformance to reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Reality is all-there-is which comprised humans and all other things.
All humans are programmed to survive till the inevitable.
To survive effectively, humans need to know the truth of reality.
But reality is subject to infinite regression.
To survive within infinite regression, humans seek patterns within reality.
To grasp patterns within reality, humans established various Framework and System of knowledge [FSK] to seek conformance with reality i.e. truths.

Being conditioned by humans [diversified & fallible] efforts, there will be degrees of veracity of the truths from the different FSK.
The degrees of the veracity of truth will depend on the credibility of the FSK.
viewtopic.php?p=489338#p489338
At present the scientific truths of the scientific FSK is the most credible to justify their utilities to the survival of the individuals and of humanity.
All other FSKs and their truths are relative and lower in degrees of credibility to the Scientific FSK.

For example, if Scientific truths are rated at 95/100, then theistic truths [criteria assessed] would be rated, say, 10/100 or less.

Therefore 'truth' is conformance to reality - having degrees relative to the credibility of its specific FSK - and is generated for its utilities and ultimately geared toward the survival of the individuals and humanity.
stevie
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by stevie »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
I understand that you don't claim to be true what you are claiming. Why then are you claiming what you are claiming?
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RCSaunders
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

stevie wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:39 am I understand that you don't claim to be true ...
If that's what you think, then you don't understand.
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:12 am Your 'true assertions' are empty and meaningless.

What is truth is conformance to reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Reality is all-there-is which comprised humans and all other things.
All humans are programmed to survive till the inevitable.
To survive effectively, humans need to know the truth of reality.
But reality is subject to infinite regression.
To survive within infinite regression, humans seek patterns within reality.
To grasp patterns within reality, humans established various Framework and System of knowledge [FSK] to seek conformance with reality i.e. truths.

Being conditioned by humans [diversified & fallible] efforts, there will be degrees of veracity of the truths from the different FSK.
The degrees of the veracity of truth will depend on the credibility of the FSK.
viewtopic.php?p=489338#p489338
At present the scientific truths of the scientific FSK is the most credible to justify their utilities to the survival of the individuals and of humanity.
All other FSKs and their truths are relative and lower in degrees of credibility to the Scientific FSK.

For example, if Scientific truths are rated at 95/100, then theistic truths [criteria assessed] would be rated, say, 10/100 or less.

Therefore 'truth' is conformance to reality - having degrees relative to the credibility of its specific FSK - and is generated for its utilities and ultimately geared toward the survival of the individuals and humanity.
Well absolutely none of that is true.

What are you trying to put over?
simplicity
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
This is a reasonable distillation of The Heart Sutra, the most revered writing in Zen [and other Buddhist sects]. Note that his is one of many translations, but they are all similar.

The Bodhisattva of Compassion,When he meditated deeply,Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering.Here then,Form is no other than emptiness,

Emptiness no other than form. Form is only emptiness, Emptiness only form.
Feeling, thought, and choice, Consciousness itself,Are the same as this.
All things are by nature void They are not born or destroyed Nor are they stained or pure, Nor do they wax or wane
So, in emptiness, no form, No feeling, thought, or choice,Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; No color, sound, smell, taste, touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of,Nor even act of sensing.No ignorance or end of it,
Nor all that comes of ignorance;No withering, no death,No end of them. Nor is there pain, or cause of pain,
Or cease in pain, or noble path To lead from pain;Not even wisdom to attain!Attainment too is emptiness.
So know that the Bodhisattva Holding to nothing whatever, But dwelling in Prajna wisdom, Is freed of delusive hindrance,
Rid of the fear bred by it,And reaches clearest Nirvana.All Buddhas of past and present,
Buddhas of future time,Using this Prajna wisdom, Come to full and perfect vision.
Hear then the great dharani,The radiant peerless mantra, The Prajnaparamita Whose words allay all pain;
Hear and believe its truth!
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi SvahaGate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi SvahaGate Gate
Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha


https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/fi ... _sutra.pdf
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RCSaunders
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
This is a reasonable distillation of The Heart Sutra, the most revered writing in Zen [and other Buddhist sects]. Note that his is one of many translations, but they are all similar.

The Bodhisattva of Compassion,When he meditated deeply,Saw the emptiness of all five skandhas
And sundered the bonds that caused him suffering.Here then,Form is no other than emptiness,

Emptiness no other than form. Form is only emptiness, Emptiness only form.
Feeling, thought, and choice, Consciousness itself,Are the same as this.
All things are by nature void They are not born or destroyed Nor are they stained or pure, Nor do they wax or wane
So, in emptiness, no form, No feeling, thought, or choice,Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; No color, sound, smell, taste, touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of,Nor even act of sensing.No ignorance or end of it,
Nor all that comes of ignorance;No withering, no death,No end of them. Nor is there pain, or cause of pain,
Or cease in pain, or noble path To lead from pain;Not even wisdom to attain!Attainment too is emptiness.
So know that the Bodhisattva Holding to nothing whatever, But dwelling in Prajna wisdom, Is freed of delusive hindrance,
Rid of the fear bred by it,And reaches clearest Nirvana.All Buddhas of past and present,
Buddhas of future time,Using this Prajna wisdom, Come to full and perfect vision.
Hear then the great dharani,The radiant peerless mantra, The Prajnaparamita Whose words allay all pain;
Hear and believe its truth!
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi SvahaGate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi SvahaGate Gate
Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha


https://thebuddhistcentre.com/system/fi ... _sutra.pdf
Wonderful example of self-induced insanity, a mind destroyed beyond repair. It's the unfortunate consequence of surrendering one's mind to irrational absurdities like Sutras or other religious documents and authorities.

It is very sad, but ubiquitous, nevertheless.

"The costliest of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind." --H.L. Mencken
Scott Mayers
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Scott Mayers »

"Truth" to me is definable as "membership to some universal class" only.

A 'true' statement is relative to the particular universal class where clearly defined. So what is 'true' now, for instance, refers to a universal class that might be defined as "statements said 'now'" where 'now' would then need defining. Likewise, what is 'false' is just what is not included in the universal class assumed.

Much of the problems of discussing particular claims of 'truth' are about lacking clear definitions of classes.
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Sculptor »

Truth is only a relationship.
It is when the idea of a thing matches the thing in the real world.
It is an expression and ackowledgement of that relationship.
simplicity
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:33 pmWonderful example of self-induced insanity, a mind destroyed beyond repair. It's the unfortunate consequence of surrendering one's mind to irrational absurdities like Sutras or other religious documents and authorities.

It is very sad, but ubiquitous, nevertheless.

"The costliest of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind." --H.L. Mencken
What exactly do you dispute?
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm Truth is only a relationship.
It is when the idea of a thing matches the thing in the real world.
It is an expression and ackowledgement of that relationship.
How does an, "idea," match anything in the real world.? Don't things match when they have some common attribute or characteristic, like the same size, or shape, or color? I'm not disputing what you've said, just trying to understand what you mean. I don't see how any idea can have any attribute or characteristic that would match something, "in the real world."

Perhaps it's what you mean by, "idea." I'm thinking of, "idea," as a simple concept, like, "box," or, "empty," which, all by thenselves are is neither true or false. If you mean by, "idea," a proposition, like, "the box is empty," for example, that's exactly what I said. If the box, in reality, is empty, the proposition, "the box is empty," is true, but if there is something in the box, the proposition is not true.

If that's all you mean, I agree. What you are saying does sound like the, "correspondence," theory of truth, however, which I do not agree with.
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:39 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm Truth is only a relationship.
It is when the idea of a thing matches the thing in the real world.
It is an expression and ackowledgement of that relationship.
How does an, "idea," match anything in the real world.? Don't things match when they have some common attribute or characteristic, like the same size, or shape, or color? I'm not disputing what you've said, just trying to understand what you mean. I don't see how any idea can have any attribute or characteristic that would match something, "in the real world."

Perhaps it's what you mean by, "idea." I'm thinking of, "idea," as a simple concept, like, "box," or, "empty," which, all by thenselves are is neither true or false. If you mean by, "idea," a proposition, like, "the box is empty," for example, that's exactly what I said. If the box, in reality, is empty, the proposition, "the box is empty," is true, but if there is something in the box, the proposition is not true.

If that's all you mean, I agree. What you are saying does sound like the, "correspondence," theory of truth, however, which I do not agree with.
Philosophers usually call it correspondence, conformity, congruence, agreement, accordance, signification, representation, or reference.
Truth theory is quite a big topic.
You might try Hospers.

Actually what you have already describes is much the same as correspondance.
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

Scott Mayers wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:34 pm "Truth" to me is definable as "membership to some universal class" only
What, "universal class?" Class of what? Things? Events? Attributes? Pickles?
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:44 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:39 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm Truth is only a relationship.
It is when the idea of a thing matches the thing in the real world.
It is an expression and ackowledgement of that relationship.
How does an, "idea," match anything in the real world.? Don't things match when they have some common attribute or characteristic, like the same size, or shape, or color? I'm not disputing what you've said, just trying to understand what you mean. I don't see how any idea can have any attribute or characteristic that would match something, "in the real world."

Perhaps it's what you mean by, "idea." I'm thinking of, "idea," as a simple concept, like, "box," or, "empty," which, all by thenselves are is neither true or false. If you mean by, "idea," a proposition, like, "the box is empty," for example, that's exactly what I said. If the box, in reality, is empty, the proposition, "the box is empty," is true, but if there is something in the box, the proposition is not true.

If that's all you mean, I agree. What you are saying does sound like the, "correspondence," theory of truth, however, which I do not agree with.
Philosophers usually call it correspondence, conformity, congruence, agreement, accordance, signification, representation, or reference.
Truth theory is quite a big topic.
You might try Hospers.

Actually what you have already describes is much the same as correspondance.
The problem with the correspondance theory is how it's presented. If you study all the various versions (and there are several), they all end up reifying, "truth," into some kind of metaphysical thing, with language like, "truth bearing elements," as though it were some kind of independent existent that had any meaning separate from propositions. What I'm emphasizing is: truth has no meaning or existence at all independent of human conscious thought.
simplicity
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Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by simplicity »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm Truth is only a relationship.
It is when the idea of a thing matches the thing in the real world.
It is an expression and ackowledgement of that relationship.
Truth exists each and every moment but it holds only for that specific moment [of which we have no access to], i.e., the infinite conditions that give rise to a particular moment are unique. So, truth something we cannot attain.

Of course there are "street versions" of the truth similar to the one you offered. And there is, "sort of the truth," which is where we humans ply our intellect. If I had to guess, I would say that the amount of truth contained in the most intelligent of our species might be in the .00001% range [give/take].
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