No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm Because the set of "all true statements" contains an entry which refers to itself.
You're taking "set" literally again, like it's a "mathematical set" with a specific number. There are no limits to how many true statements can actually be made, so there is no actual "set" involved at all.

But this is painfully dull, and beside the point. The simple point is that one can't coherently say "It's true nothing is true."
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Walker »

RC: Looks like we posted at the same time, my posting both answering your question, and responding to your reliance on belief, before you stated it.

(Notice that at no time did I use "to be," in that sentence of truth.) :P
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Walker »

- The entity that we address with the inner voice, the inner dialogue, takes things that it hears, literally.

-This dynamic underlies brainwashing and subliminal conditioning.

- If you say “this is that,” then the entity that you address with the inner voice will believe “this is that,” because it trusts you.

- You can tell the entity that “elephants are small,” and that will affect the entity’s subsequent apprehension of reality in ways that may seem irrational, because the entity takes the things that you say, literally.

- For example, a child who grows up receiving participation-trophy awards for last place may get the idea that he, or she, is special.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Skepdick »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:43 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:29 pm So is undecidable the same as false?
You don't know?
You do?
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:04 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm Because the set of "all true statements" contains an entry which refers to itself.
You're taking "set" literally again, like it's a "mathematical set" with a specific number. There are no limits to how many true statements can actually be made, so there is no actual "set" involved at all.
I am not doing anything of this sort. Try un-confuse yourself.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:04 pm But this is painfully dull, and beside the point. The simple point is that one can't coherently say "It's true nothing is true."
Yes I can.

It's true nothing is true.
It's true I don't exist.

If you are missing the context, intention and semantics which make the above sentences cohere, then that sounds like a you-problem.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
Not true. Is what you wrote true?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am It's true nothing is true.
It's true I don't exist.
Two nonsense statements.
stevie
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:43 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by stevie »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:22 pm ... I never said, "truth is an assertion." It is not, it is an attribute. A proposition is an assertion. It makes a difference.
stevie wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:15 pm ... "There is no other kind of truth." which may lead to the concept of an absolutely true ...
Of course it doesn't. If I use the description of sulfur from the periodic table of the elements and say, "there is no other kind of sulfur," does that make it, "absolute sulfur?"
No but if you don't say that attributes are merely relative conventions the concept "there is no other kind of sulfur" in the context of the periodic table can't be differentiated from an assertion of an absolute truth which you purported to reject.
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:22 pm As I pointed out earlier, "absolute truth," is redundant, a proposition is either true or it isn't, ...
A proposition may be called "true" or "false" depending on the convention the proposition maker follows.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Dontaskme »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth," or ultimate truth or absolute truth. Truth is not a thing, not a substance, and not an entity.

Truth is an attribute. Truth is an attribute of only one kind of thing: statements that assert something about something else. Any statement (sentence or proposition) of the form, "such'n'such is so'n'so," is an assertion that is true if such'n'such is actually so'n'so, and is not true (false) if such'n'such is not so'n'so. Truth is nothing more than the attribute of all true assertions. There is no other kind of truth.

Like all attributes there is no truth independent of those things (verbal assertions) truth is a quality of. Truth only pertains to actual sentences that are thought, articulated, or written in a language. There is no truth of any kind independent of actual verbal statements. There is no truth independent of human conscious thought.

Just as there is no size, (such as big) or shape, (such as triangular), or taste (such as sweet) if there is nothing that has size, shape, or flavor, there is no truth (or falehood) if there is no verbal assertion that can be true or false.

Almost everything said or written about truth in religion and philosophy is nonsense intended to obfuscate what truth means with the intention of repudiating truth and knowledge to put over some absurd ideology, program, or agenda or other superstitious nonsense.
I agree and understand above statement. Which has been very well explained.

''Truth'' is a concept known only in relationship to it's equal and exact opposite by association.
Every known concept is a meaningless symbolic character that only appears to be meaningful, therefore can only be fictional.
All meaning is derived from what is fundamentally meaningless. Therefore, everything is both true and false, yet neither true nor false outside of human conceptual langage. As I've said before, knowledge and meaning can only point to the illusory nature of reality, in so far as there is no meaning and knowledge in reality, except in this fictional conception.

In order to understand what I have written, one has to think very deeply into what ''words'' actually are. They are in all actuality made of ''sound'' which is pure emptiness, at it's deepest core.

I'm not posting this response to invoke a reply, I'm simply leaving this an idea to ponder. I will say nothing further on the matter.

A pure example of what I am attempting to say can be read here >

''The character of existence is not true, is false''

There is no such thing as nonduality because nonduality is not a thing. Therefore, reality is nondual.


.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:17 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am There is no such thing as, "The Truth,"
Is that true? :wink:
A question can only arise to the illusory sense that there is a self to ask one. In reality there is no such self - except in this artificially constructed conception, which is illusory. Reality is a totally unknowable and inconcievable event. To know you know would be to cross the event horizon which is impossible. An event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. The event horizon is an imaginary sphere that measures how close to the singularity you can safely get. Once you have passed the event horizon, it becomes impossible to escape as you will be drawn in by the black hole's gravitational pull and squashed into the singularity. Therefore, all knowledge of a self is an illusory knowing. There is absolutely no one observing events. There is no observer, meaning there is an observer. . albeit illusory. It's tricky!!
In other words you cannot cross the horizon simply because there isn't one.

Asking a question assumes there is an answer, in reality the question is the answer or the answer is the question, simply because there is no knowledge of a knower without making that knower a known. And that which is known, can know nothing.

And if all that makes no sense to you, then it's because you do not yet understand that knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality. Reality is nondual whether you believe that or not, will not change the fact.

No self has ever been seen. Self is purely a known concept, known by the only knowing there is which is consciousness, which is unknowable.

A self can only know itself in an imaginary sense. Not a literal sense. Senses are absolutely without sense. They are senseless in the sense of self-knowing is concerned. The obvious contradiction is also part of the whole illusion.

.
Skepdick
Posts: 14362
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:23 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am It's true nothing is true.
It's true I don't exist.
Two nonsense statements.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am If you are missing the context, intention and semantics which make the above sentences cohere, then that sounds like a you-problem.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

stevie wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:27 am
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:22 pm ... I never said, "truth is an assertion." It is not, it is an attribute. A proposition is an assertion. It makes a difference.
stevie wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:15 pm ... "There is no other kind of truth." which may lead to the concept of an absolutely true ...
Of course it doesn't. If I use the description of sulfur from the periodic table of the elements and say, "there is no other kind of sulfur," does that make it, "absolute sulfur?"
No but if you don't say that attributes are merely relative conventions the concept "there is no other kind of sulfur" in the context of the periodic table can't be differentiated from an assertion of an absolute truth which you purported to reject.
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:22 pm As I pointed out earlier, "absolute truth," is redundant, a proposition is either true or it isn't, ...
A proposition may be called "true" or "false" depending on the convention the proposition maker follows.
You think truth is determined by consensus? There is only one thing that determines the truth, reality, which is all there is the way it is whether anyone knows or is even aware of that reality or not. Any, "convention," that would base truth on anything other the observable evidence of reality is a lie.

The idea that anything is established by, "convention," is post-modernist nonsense, designed to take in the gullible.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by RCSaunders »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:29 am There is no such thing as nonduality because nonduality is not a thing. Therefore, reality is nondual.
Which is apropos of or pertaining to what? Or are you just fond of repeating the obvious?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:23 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am It's true nothing is true.
It's true I don't exist.
Two nonsense statements.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am If you are missing the context, intention and semantics which make the above sentences cohere, then that sounds like a you-problem.
No: they're still nonsense because they self-contradict. "I" contradicts with "not-exist," just as "true" contradicts with "nothing is true." They're merely self-defeating. They predicate, in the completion that which is the dead opposite of what is assumed in the subject.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: No Such Thing as, "The Truth"

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:23 pm
Two nonsense statements.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:21 am If you are missing the context, intention and semantics which make the above sentences cohere, then that sounds like a you-problem.
No: they're still nonsense because they self-contradict. "I" contradicts with "not-exist," just as "true" contradicts with "nothing is true." They're merely self-defeating. They predicate, in the completion that which is the dead opposite of what is assumed in the subject.
There is no such thing as Nonsense. Nonsense is sense. There's no such thing as a senseless sense.

The mind is always lookiing to make sense of what it cannot make sense of. IE: itself, which is it's only frame of reference. It can only ever refer to itself, the self it has absolutely no idea about, except as an idea itself.

Nothing is true, because nothing is untrue.

The contradiction is a necessary function of illusory knowledge which can only point to the illusory nature of reality.

Image

The camera never lies.
Post Reply