Doing...NOT Saying

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simplicity
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Doing...NOT Saying

Post by simplicity »

I've participated in many internet forums since its inception [mostly philosophy, economics, religion, and automobiles] and have "met" many very nice people. As well, I've had hundreds of interesting conversations. I actually became quite friendly with a guy on a Porsche list from the early nineties [Porschefiles], and he went on to become somewhat of a mentor to me up to his passing some ten or fifteen years ago.

One thing I have learned over and over in life is that if you wish to know somebody, look at what they do, not at what they say. This, of course, is the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen. Everybody has a completely different life experience so their way is their's alone [another reason why collective-ist thinking is a complete disaster].

Anyway, I've enjoyed chatting with many of you and look forward to many more interesting conversations. Try to include examples of things that you have done [to your arguments] which will allow others to "know" you better. Otherwise, relax and enjoy. Everybody is essentially trying to do their best to get by in a world that is difficult by any measure.
Age
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm I've participated in many internet forums since its inception [mostly philosophy, economics, religion, and automobiles] and have "met" many very nice people. As well, I've had hundreds of interesting conversations. I actually became quite friendly with a guy on a Porsche list from the early nineties [Porschefiles], and he went on to become somewhat of a mentor to me up to his passing some ten or fifteen years ago.

One thing I have learned over and over in life is that if you wish to know somebody, look at what they do, not at what they say. This, of course, is the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen. Everybody has a completely different life experience so their way is their's alone [another reason why collective-ist thinking is a complete disaster].

Anyway, I've enjoyed chatting with many of you and look forward to many more interesting conversations. Try to include examples of things that you have done [to your arguments] which will allow others to "know" you better. Otherwise, relax and enjoy. Everybody is essentially trying to do their best to get by in a world that is difficult by any measure.
How, exactly, is the 'world', supposedly, "difficult", by any measure?

And, when you say the 'world' word, what exactly are you actually referring to?
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Lacewing
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Lacewing »

simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen.
Agreed. There appears to be a lot of different reasons why people use these forums. I think it is an opportunity to discuss different perspectives and ideas, any of which might offer interesting insights (about truth, falseness, delusion, etc.) in one way or another, and expand/shift what and how we think. Many of the exchanges may offer entertainment: for example, those who seem obsessed with casting themselves in uniquely 'knowing' positions of 'truth and answers' are hard to take seriously. Why would the potential of such a vast Universe be reflected through the claims and perspective of any one person on an internet forum? :lol:

At times, I have asked people how their 'truths' have improved their life, and what they're doing with it. I've never gotten an answer. I'm guessing it's because they're actually only being served by the intoxication of 'knowing it all' right now (and perhaps primarily acting it out on a forum). I think the awareness of our evolving states of mind throughout our lives is very revealing. For me, it points to how much more there always is.

There have been times in my life where I wished I could 'unsee' the reality that had opened up before me, or I thought 'being wrong about everything' was almost worse than death, or I thought maybe I could pretend and never have to admit to it and no one could force me to, or each time there was a new revelation I thought 'this is IT - NOW I know how it is!' :lol: , or I thought I could control or repair all sorts of things if I tried hard enough or loved enough, or I identified with a certain idea of being a good and kind person no matter what. I don't think in those ways anymore -- I feel at peace with not knowing (nor controlling) everything or anything specific. There have been lots of paths and revelations and lessons... which I accept will continue... and it's an amazing unfolding I am grateful to experience.

Letting go and flowing more broadly than my ego (so to speak), has manifested amazing things in my own life -- so that seems to be a pretty good indication/outcome for me. I do not take any of it for granted. This is probably why, however, I feel motivated to respond feistily to people who claim they uniquely know absolute truth or answers. Do they really? -- what personal evidence or proof are they basing it on, otherwise it seems to be nothing more than bluster and imagination in service to their ego. I think such exploratory discussions would be interesting and reveal more truth.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm One thing I have learned over and over in life is that if you wish to know somebody, look at what they do, not at what they say. This, of course, is the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing.
Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery.
Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen.
Everybody has a completely different life experience so their way is their's alone [another reason why collective-ist thinking is a complete disaster].
When one participate in forums like this, it is critical one is aware of the inherent pros and cons, thus should not expect more than what it is limited to offer.

Generally forums like this are not about "knowing somebody" personally. There are other social forums for meeting up with the others.

The best one can get from such forums is from whatever is posted one has to use one's own filter to ensure the ideas and information are positive to oneself.
I agree beside the above, such forums are useful for one to improve one writing skills, thinking skills, refresh one ideas, get feedbacks [hopefully] for ones ideas.
Initially I was criticized for lack of critical thinking and I took steps to improve on that.

I was also critiqued for narrow and shallow thinking, so I made the attempt to cover widely and deeply. This is why I spent 3 years full time on Kant Critique of Pure Reason.

I believe one can learn of somebody from his writings and doing, but both are also limited especially if someone has something to hide they will not act it out in front of others.
This is why it is so difficult to track down serial killers immediately. Most of these serial killers are intelligent psychopaths and even their spouse, kins, friends and colleagues could not detect they are a serial killer from what they are doing. Recently many serial killers were traced after >30 to 40 years with DNA technology.

One can also learn of something of each member from what they have posted. It is common for psychologists to analyze a person's character from his writings.
commonsense
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by commonsense »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen.
Agreed. There appears to be a lot of different reasons why people use these forums. I think it is an opportunity to discuss different perspectives and ideas, any of which might offer interesting insights (about truth, falseness, delusion, etc.) in one way or another, and expand/shift what and how we think. Many of the exchanges may offer entertainment: for example, those who seem obsessed with casting themselves in uniquely 'knowing' positions of 'truth and answers' are hard to take seriously. Why would the potential of such a vast Universe be reflected through the claims and perspective of any one person on an internet forum? :lol:

At times, I have asked people how their 'truths' have improved their life, and what they're doing with it. I've never gotten an answer. I'm guessing it's because they're actually only being served by the intoxication of 'knowing it all' right now (and perhaps primarily acting it out on a forum). I think the awareness of our evolving states of mind throughout our lives is very revealing. For me, it points to how much more there always is.

There have been times in my life where I wished I could 'unsee' the reality that had opened up before me, or I thought 'being wrong about everything' was almost worse than death, or I thought maybe I could pretend and never have to admit to it and no one could force me to, or each time there was a new revelation I thought 'this is IT - NOW I know how it is!' :lol: , or I thought I could control or repair all sorts of things if I tried hard enough or loved enough, or I identified with a certain idea of being a good and kind person no matter what. I don't think in those ways anymore -- I feel at peace with not knowing (nor controlling) everything or anything specific. There have been lots of paths and revelations and lessons... which I accept will continue... and it's an amazing unfolding I am grateful to experience.

Letting go and flowing more broadly than my ego (so to speak), has manifested amazing things in my own life -- so that seems to be a pretty good indication/outcome for me. I do not take any of it for granted. This is probably why, however, I feel motivated to respond feistily to people who claim they uniquely know absolute truth or answers. Do they really? -- what personal evidence or proof are they basing it on, otherwise it seems to be nothing more than bluster and imagination in service to their ego. I think such exploratory discussions would be interesting and reveal more truth.
This is wonderfully autobiographical—thanks for truly revealing something of yourself.
commonsense
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by commonsense »

simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm I've participated in many internet forums since its inception [mostly philosophy, economics, religion, and automobiles] and have "met" many very nice people. As well, I've had hundreds of interesting conversations. I actually became quite friendly with a guy on a Porsche list from the early nineties [Porschefiles], and he went on to become somewhat of a mentor to me up to his passing some ten or fifteen years ago.

One thing I have learned over and over in life is that if you wish to know somebody, look at what they do, not at what they say. This, of course, is the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen. Everybody has a completely different life experience so their way is their's alone [another reason why collective-ist thinking is a complete disaster].

Anyway, I've enjoyed chatting with many of you and look forward to many more interesting conversations. Try to include examples of things that you have done [to your arguments] which will allow others to "know" you better. Otherwise, relax and enjoy. Everybody is essentially trying to do their best to get by in a world that is difficult by any measure.
FYI

This thread should be in The Lounge.
simplicity
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:34 am How, exactly, is the 'world', supposedly, "difficult", by any measure?
Human life is full of suffering.
simplicity
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by simplicity »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen.
Agreed. There appears to be a lot of different reasons why people use these forums. I think it is an opportunity to discuss different perspectives and ideas, any of which might offer interesting insights (about truth, falseness, delusion, etc.) in one way or another, and expand/shift what and how we think. Many of the exchanges may offer entertainment: for example, those who seem obsessed with casting themselves in uniquely 'knowing' positions of 'truth and answers' are hard to take seriously. Why would the potential of such a vast Universe be reflected through the claims and perspective of any one person on an internet forum? :lol:

At times, I have asked people how their 'truths' have improved their life, and what they're doing with it. I've never gotten an answer. I'm guessing it's because they're actually only being served by the intoxication of 'knowing it all' right now (and perhaps primarily acting it out on a forum). I think the awareness of our evolving states of mind throughout our lives is very revealing. For me, it points to how much more there always is.

There have been times in my life where I wished I could 'unsee' the reality that had opened up before me, or I thought 'being wrong about everything' was almost worse than death, or I thought maybe I could pretend and never have to admit to it and no one could force me to, or each time there was a new revelation I thought 'this is IT - NOW I know how it is!' :lol: , or I thought I could control or repair all sorts of things if I tried hard enough or loved enough, or I identified with a certain idea of being a good and kind person no matter what. I don't think in those ways anymore -- I feel at peace with not knowing (nor controlling) everything or anything specific. There have been lots of paths and revelations and lessons... which I accept will continue... and it's an amazing unfolding I am grateful to experience.

Letting go and flowing more broadly than my ego (so to speak), has manifested amazing things in my own life -- so that seems to be a pretty good indication/outcome for me. I do not take any of it for granted. This is probably why, however, I feel motivated to respond feistily to people who claim they uniquely know absolute truth or answers. Do they really? -- what personal evidence or proof are they basing it on, otherwise it seems to be nothing more than bluster and imagination in service to their ego. I think such exploratory discussions would be interesting and reveal more truth.
Interesting post.
simplicity
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:02 am I was also critiqued for narrow and shallow thinking, so I made the attempt to cover widely and deeply. This is why I spent 3 years full time on Kant Critique of Pure Reason.

I believe one can learn of somebody from his writings and doing, but both are also limited especially if someone has something to hide they will not act it out in front of others.
I wouldn't worry too much about what other people say. Stay on your own path.

There are many brilliant thinkers out there but I wouldn't get so caught up with anybody in particular. And it's helpful to keep in mind that the truly brilliant are generally defined by a lack of balance in their lives [which caused all kinds of difficulties].

Keep up the good work.
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Lacewing
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Lacewing »

It seems to me that if we cannot acknowledge the ways in which we have been wrong or limited throughout our lives, then we are not acknowledging that our awareness can shift and expand, and therefore we cannot acknowledge how much more there can be than what we claim in any given moment/circumstance. It's as if we might get stuck in perpetually protecting whatever our current awareness is -- as if we are at a pinnacle of 'rightness'. It doesn't make sense. There are so many different ways to view life and this world. And any individual person may experience many of them throughout their lifetime, based on all sorts of contributing factors.

What if we simply acknowledged that there can be alternative understandings/realizations/potential for everything we are so certain of the definition or limits of? Theism... political parties... prejudice... science... etc. Instead of identifying everything as being made up of two-sided, black and white markers... it seems more reasonable to see everything as constructed of multi-faceted prisms reflecting a much broader range of potentials. So all of the claims that are built on defining everything or everyone in black and white terms, are not only primitive, but they're false. They are a made-up illusion that serves one's agenda in an extraordinarily childish and foolish way. And shouldn't people on this forum be smarter than that? :)

Anyone can ask themselves: "How much more is there than what I think?" Perhaps the answer can reveal how small or large their Universe is, and how much of it is filled with themselves.
Age
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:15 pm
Age wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:34 am How, exactly, is the 'world', supposedly, "difficult", by any measure?
Human life is full of suffering.
WHY then do 'I' NOT suffer.

And, WHAT, exactly, is 'it', which you are suffering from?
Age
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 pm the great disadvantage of these written forums...they're all about saying and nothing [or very little] about doing. Because of this, perhaps folks should not take what participants write so seriously, instead, take what these forums can give you...the opportunity to refine your writing skills and work out some issues through self-discovery. Attempting to convince others that your way is THE way is not going to happen.
Agreed. There appears to be a lot of different reasons why people use these forums. I think it is an opportunity to discuss different perspectives and ideas, any of which might offer interesting insights (about truth, falseness, delusion, etc.) in one way or another, and expand/shift what and how we think. Many of the exchanges may offer entertainment: for example, those who seem obsessed with casting themselves in uniquely 'knowing' positions of 'truth and answers' are hard to take seriously.
YET "lacewing" is the one who is the biggest offender here of claiming to 'know' of 'truth and answers'.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm Why would the potential of such a vast Universe be reflected through the claims and perspective of any one person on an internet forum? :lol:
Why do 'you', "lacewing" claim to 'know' that YOUR 'truth and answer' is the RIGHT one?
simplicity wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:18 pm At times, I have asked people how their 'truths' have improved their life, and what they're doing with it. I've never gotten an answer.
AND, I have asked you how your 'truths' have improved your life, and what you are doing with it. Did you answer this clarifying question before?

If yes OR no, then what is your answer to that question?
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm I'm guessing it's because they're actually only being served by the intoxication of 'knowing it all' right now (and perhaps primarily acting it out on a forum). I think the awareness of our evolving states of mind throughout our lives is very revealing. For me, it points to how much more there always is.

There have been times in my life where I wished I could 'unsee' the reality that had opened up before me, or I thought 'being wrong about everything' was almost worse than death, or I thought maybe I could pretend and never have to admit to it and no one could force me to, or each time there was a new revelation I thought 'this is IT - NOW I know how it is!' :lol: , or I thought I could control or repair all sorts of things if I tried hard enough or loved enough, or I identified with a certain idea of being a good and kind person no matter what. I don't think in those ways anymore -- I feel at peace with not knowing (nor controlling) everything or anything specific. There have been lots of paths and revelations and lessons... which I accept will continue... and it's an amazing unfolding I am grateful to experience.
What exactly is 'it' that is an amazing unfolding, to you, which you are grateful to experience?
simplicity wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:18 pm Letting go and flowing more broadly than my ego (so to speak), has manifested amazing things in my own life
Like 'what' for example?
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm -- so that seems to be a pretty good indication/outcome for me. I do not take any of it for granted. This is probably why, however, I feel motivated to respond feistily to people who claim they uniquely know absolute truth or answers.
You speak as though you 'know' absolute 'truth or answer' here.

Is it AT ALL POSSIBLE to 'you', "lacewing", that there IS an absolute truth or answer, which can be 'known'? Or, is this ABSOLUTELY NOT POSSIBLE, to 'you'?
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm Do they really?
Do you 'really' BELIEVE, and uniquely KNOW, that there is NO absolute truth NOR answer?

If yes, then the CONTRADICTION is BLINDING.

But if no, then WHY respond feisty?

Maybe this is a GREAT TIME for you to LOOK AT "your" OWN 'self', and shift/expand your viewpoint.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm -- what personal evidence or proof are they basing it on, otherwise it seems to be nothing more than bluster and imagination in service to their ego.
What personal evidence or proof are you basing your CLAIMS on?

You, after all, OBVIOUSLY appear to have been doing nothing more than just blustering on in service to your OWN ego here.
Lacewing wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:59 pm I think such exploratory discussions would be interesting and reveal more truth.

I would find it VERY INTERESTING if "lacewing" EVER BEGAN looking into and exploring its OWN BELIEFS and views here. I have offered MANY times to discuss "lacewing's" views, and explore into them further, as I KNOW far more Truth would be REVEALED, but with NEVER any success.

But maybe one day "lacewing" will become Truly OPEN and Honest with us here.

We will just have to WAIT and SEE.
Age
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm It seems to me that if we cannot acknowledge the ways in which we have been wrong or limited throughout our lives, then we are not acknowledging that our awareness can shift and expand, and therefore we cannot acknowledge how much more there can be than what we claim in any given moment/circumstance.
So, WHY is it 'you', "lacewing", who does NOT acknowledge ALL of the way in which you have been wrong or limited throughout your life?
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm It's as if we might get stuck in perpetually protecting whatever our current awareness is -- as if we are at a pinnacle of 'rightness'.
And, just as I have kept telling 'you', human beings, 'you' are STUCK in your OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Rid "yourselves" of them and you WILL SEE and UNDERSTAND things much MORE CLEARLY.
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm It doesn't make sense. There are so many different ways to view life and this world. And any individual person may experience many of them throughout their lifetime, based on all sorts of contributing factors.
So, WHY are 'you', "lacewing", one of the greatest offenders here of NOT being able to LOOK AT and SEE things, from "others" perspectives?

WHY do you just remain STUCK in and with your OWN BELIEFS and VIEWS?

Once you learn this answer, then you will be able to START SEEING things FAR MORE CLEARER.
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm What if we simply acknowledged that there can be alternative understandings/realizations/potential for everything we are so certain of the definition or limits of?
The answer to this will become KNOW and FULLY UNDERSTOOD when you SIMPLY and Honestly acknowledge that 'you', "yourself", do NOT do this.
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm Theism... political parties... prejudice... science... etc. Instead of identifying everything as being made up of two-sided, black and white markers... it seems more reasonable to see everything as constructed of multi-faceted prisms reflecting a much broader range of potentials. So all of the claims that are built on defining everything or everyone in black and white terms, are not only primitive, but they're false. They are a made-up illusion that serves one's agenda in an extraordinarily childish and foolish way. And shouldn't people on this forum be smarter than that? :)

LOL If only 'you' could SEE the ACTUAL joke here.

All you have done here is express your OWN made-up illusion that serves your OWN agenda, in the MOST extraordinarily immature and foolish way.
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm Anyone can ask themselves: "How much more is there than what I think?"
Anyone can ask "themseves" a just about infinite number of questions.
Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:09 pm Perhaps the answer can reveal how small or large their Universe is, and how much of it is filled with themselves.
Thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Universe is the one I much prefer to LOOK AT, discuss, and concentrate on.

'your' little and insignificant, human universes are what is leading you all astray.
simplicity
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:32 am WHY then do 'I' NOT suffer.
Well, congratulations! You are the first member of our species who has lived a life without any suffering.
Age
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Re: Doing...NOT Saying

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:01 pm
Age wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:32 am WHY then do 'I' NOT suffer.
Well, congratulations! You are the first member of our species who has lived a life without any suffering.
A few things here;

1. WHY do you ASSUME things, before CLARIFYING?

2. If, and when, you learn and FULLY understand who, and what, 'I' am, then 'you' will also KNOW that 'I' am NOT a 'member' of the species 'human'.

3. I NEVER said ANY thing about living a 'life' without ANY suffering. And,

4. Besides continuous pain in the physical body just about ALL other 'suffering' is caused by adult human beings only, which only children have to endure. If ANY one "else" is, so called, "suffering", then this is only because they have NOT YET matured enough.
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