Responsibility

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RCSaunders
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Re: Responsibility

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:57 am
simplicity wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 pm simpl,

Responsibility means such things as a burden, accountability, reliability or trustworthiness.

As such, you seem to have it that love is a burden and that bearing this burden is a way to be held accountable. But I don’t think you have meant to imply this at all.

Please clarify again what your idiosyncratic definition of the word responsibility is.
Responsibility is doing what you need to do.
Will you provide ANY examples?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm You are responsible [to yourself and others] if you have made the most of your opportunities/potential. This is different for each individual.
Will you provide ANY examples?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm Each person knows whether they are being responsible as there is an immediate feedback mechanism. If you feel good after doing something, its an indication that you are on the right path. The opposite applies as well.
So, if one drinks lots of alcohol or takes lots of drugs or has sex with lots of things, and one feels 'good' after doing those things, then that is an indication that that one is on the right path, correct?

If no, then what are you referring to, EXACTLY?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:48 pm In the end, comes down to intention and hard work.
'What', exactly, comes down to intention and hard work, in the end?
Every quote in this response is wrongly attributed. They are by, "simplicity."
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Sculptor
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Sculptor »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am My experience leads me to conclude that in most ways I am the same as pretty much the same as everybody else, but in the way I approach life and the way I see things is quite different than pretty much everybody. Very few people understand the non-intellectual and many fewer than that have experienced it to any degree.
This is inherently false, unless you have some purely ideosyncratic notion of what you mean by non-intellectual.

We, all of us exprience the non-intellectual all the time.
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bahman
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Re: Responsibility

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am
bahman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:14 pm
Ansiktsburk wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:52 pm
Every emotion and experience affects you.
Yes, but I can resist it.
How do you resist "love", 'hate', 'revenge', et cetera'?

If you inform the rest of humanity HOW you do this, and thus HOW this IS DONE, and they follow you, then this would prevent a LOT of Wrong doing by 'you', human beings.
I use my mind to prevent acting according to emotions only.
commonsense
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Re: Responsibility

Post by commonsense »

bahman wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:19 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am
bahman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:14 pm
Yes, but I can resist it.
How do you resist "love", 'hate', 'revenge', et cetera'?

If you inform the rest of humanity HOW you do this, and thus HOW this IS DONE, and they follow you, then this would prevent a LOT of Wrong doing by 'you', human beings.
I use my mind to prevent acting according to emotions only.
And some people are better at this than others. It’s called compartmentalizing.
simplicity
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Re: Responsibility

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:55 amAlso, are you (really) 'trying to' claim that you do understand the non-intellectual and have experienced 'it' to some degree?

Your Honest and Truly OPEN answer will be much appreciated.
Yes. I will attempt to explain.

First off, one cannot "understand" the non-intellectual. It has to be realized [experienced].

There are two ways one can exist in the perceptual world...one is via the intellect, the other is non-intellectually. The former is often referred to as, The Relative [because anything knowable (intellectual) is constantly changing and exists within time], the later, The Absolute [it is unchanging, i.e., each moment is complete outside of time].

I speak of both the relative and the absolute. I know this is confusing because there are different rules for each sphere. Not only that, but you really cannot intellectualize the non-intellectual, so it is said that any teaching of the non-intellectual is simply pointing at the truth of the matter. In Zen, there is only one lesson...meditation. This is where you will find realization.

I have been a very serious Zen student for over 30 years so yes I have experienced some realization. It is not something that I can tell you about because it is mostly taking on different perspective or approach. Practically speaking, much of it knowing the limits of knowing. When I say that you can not know anything [in absolute terms], this is true. All things knowable are in constant flux. Therefore, even if we had the intellectual capacity to process an infinite amount information [which, of course, we don't] there are a host of other issues that prevent us from accessing reality in any true way.

So we must accept our capacity to deal with reality and make the best of it. I [and others] believe the best shot we have is to see things are clearly as possible and react [proact] accordingly. This is one of the main benefits of meditation. It simply filters out the non-sense and allows a more unobstructed view.

All of this I have written is probably not even close to what it actually is but these are the limitations we must all live with when we communicate using the intellectual. The greatest teachers in the non-intellectual sphere are those who can simplify their teaching down to the absolute basics...thus, Absolute Simplicity is Absolute Truth.
simplicity
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Re: Responsibility

Post by simplicity »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:36 am
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am My experience leads me to conclude that in most ways I am the same as pretty much the same as everybody else, but in the way I approach life and the way I see things is quite different than pretty much everybody. Very few people understand the non-intellectual and many fewer than that have experienced it to any degree.
This is inherently false, unless you have some purely ideosyncratic notion of what you mean by non-intellectual.
We, all of us exprience the non-intellectual all the time.
I use non-intellectual in its "spiritual" sense. This would be thought of as extinguishing [ideally] the little voice inside our heads that provides a running commentary, that is, changes perceptual reality into our personal reality. This is the main purpose of meditation.

The non-intellectual is allowing oneself to see things as closely as to what they truly are without [or very minimal] interpretation...allowing for better decision making, much less attachment, among other things.
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Sculptor »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:37 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:36 am
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:02 am My experience leads me to conclude that in most ways I am the same as pretty much the same as everybody else, but in the way I approach life and the way I see things is quite different than pretty much everybody. Very few people understand the non-intellectual and many fewer than that have experienced it to any degree.
This is inherently false, unless you have some purely ideosyncratic notion of what you mean by non-intellectual.
We, all of us exprience the non-intellectual all the time.
I use non-intellectual in its "spiritual" sense. This would be thought of as extinguishing [ideally] the little voice inside our heads that provides a running commentary, that is, changes perceptual reality into our personal reality. This is the main purpose of meditation.

The non-intellectual is allowing oneself to see things as closely as to what they truly are without [or very minimal] interpretation...allowing for better decision making, much less attachment, among other things.
What a load of intellectualising bullshit that is.
simplicity
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Re: Responsibility

Post by simplicity »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:07 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:37 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:36 am This is inherently false, unless you have some purely ideosyncratic notion of what you mean by non-intellectual.
We, all of us exprience the non-intellectual all the time.
I use non-intellectual in its "spiritual" sense. This would be thought of as extinguishing [ideally] the little voice inside our heads that provides a running commentary, that is, changes perceptual reality into our personal reality. This is the main purpose of meditation.

The non-intellectual is allowing oneself to see things as closely as to what they truly are without [or very minimal] interpretation...allowing for better decision making, much less attachment, among other things.
Sculptor wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:36 amWhat a load of intellectualising bullshit that is.
In one sense you are correct. My words are pointing to something else. You might consider opening your mind to alternative ways. This has been around for at least 2500 years. Think there might be something to it?
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Sculptor
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Sculptor »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm In one sense you are correct. My words are pointing to something else. You might consider opening your mind to alternative ways. This has been around for at least 2500 years. Think there might be something to it?
Calling it non intellectual is ridiculous.
Non intellectual is getting your hands in the earth to plant seeds; jumping in the sea; chopping wood; milking the goats. That is authentic contact with reality.
Age
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:29 am
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:57 am
simplicity wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm
Responsibility is doing what you need to do.
Will you provide ANY examples?
simplicity wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm You are responsible [to yourself and others] if you have made the most of your opportunities/potential. This is different for each individual.
Will you provide ANY examples?
simplicity wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm Each person knows whether they are being responsible as there is an immediate feedback mechanism. If you feel good after doing something, its an indication that you are on the right path. The opposite applies as well.
So, if one drinks lots of alcohol or takes lots of drugs or has sex with lots of things, and one feels 'good' after doing those things, then that is an indication that that one is on the right path, correct?

If no, then what are you referring to, EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:31 pm In the end, comes down to intention and hard work.
'What', exactly, comes down to intention and hard work, in the end?
Every quote in this response is wrongly attributed. They are by, "simplicity."
Okay thanks for pointing this out. Sorry about that.
Age
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:19 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am
bahman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:14 pm
Yes, but I can resist it.
How do you resist "love", 'hate', 'revenge', et cetera'?

If you inform the rest of humanity HOW you do this, and thus HOW this IS DONE, and they follow you, then this would prevent a LOT of Wrong doing by 'you', human beings.
I use my mind to prevent acting according to emotions only.
Who and what are 'you', EXACTLY? How does the relationship between 'you' and "your mind" work, EXACTLY?

And, if you have to use a thing, that you own/have control over, then how EXACTLY does that "mind" of "yours" prevent 'you' from acting according to emotions only.

Are you able to explain the actual process, so that "others" can learn from this?
Age
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:55 amAlso, are you (really) 'trying to' claim that you do understand the non-intellectual and have experienced 'it' to some degree?

Your Honest and Truly OPEN answer will be much appreciated.
Yes.
So, when you state that you "claim to understand the non-intellectual", then how does this not contradict your other claim that you are "somebody who believes that we are incapable of [really] understanding anything at all"?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm I will attempt to explain.

First off, one cannot "understand" the non-intellectual. It has to be realized [experienced].
Okay, so when you say, "Very few people understand the non-intellectual", what you are really saying, and (really) meaning, is that actually NO one can understand the non-intellectual really, anyway?

Is this correct?

If no, then why not? And, what is correct?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm There are two ways one can exist in the perceptual world...one is via the intellect, the other is non-intellectually. The former is often referred to as, The Relative [because anything knowable (intellectual) is constantly changing and exists within time],
Is 'time' constantly changing, and, what is 'time', exactly?

Also, what exactly is the 'perceptual world', and how does "this world" differ from "other worlds". Also, what "other worlds" are there, exactly?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm the later, The Absolute [it is unchanging, i.e., each moment is complete outside of time].
Did you inform us previously about what 'time' is, EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm I speak of both the relative and the absolute. I know this is confusing because there are different rules for each sphere.
"confusing" to who?

To me, the relative, and the absolute, work in perfectly together, in and with the One and ONLY 'Real world'. But, each to their own, as some say.
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm Not only that, but you really cannot intellectualize the non-intellectual, so it is said that any teaching of the non-intellectual is simply pointing at the truth of the matter.
This appears 'contradictory' AGAIN, and also.

How would one expressing, intellectually, supposedly KNOW what 'the truth', of the matter, ACTUALLY IS, to KNOW and to be able to SAY, "that ANY teaching of the non-intellectual is simply pointing at the truth of the matter"?

One would HAVE TO KNOW 'the truth of the matter' to be ABLE TO KNOW if ANY one or thing is pointing at 'that' or not, correct?

Of do you disagree here?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm In Zen, there is only one lesson...meditation. This is where you will find realization.
In OTHER things, there are are OTHER lessons. Where it is claimed, "this is where you will find realization/'the truth of the matter'. BUT, absolutely NONE of them have been agreed upon and accepted, by ALL.

Also, YOUR CLAIM that, "You really cannot intellectualize the non-intellectual, so it is said that any teaching of the non-intellectual is simply pointing at the truth of the matter." Which, to me, sounds very like the preacher informing the student/follower that, "You really cannot understand God, so ANY and ALL clarifying questions are fruitless".

The saying, " We cannot, or can NEVER, understand some 'thing' ", to me, is one of the biggest cop out 'you', human beings, use for when you make CLAIMS, but REALLY have absolutely NOTHING to back up nor support those CLAIMS.
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm I have been a very serious Zen student for over 30 years so yes I have experienced some realization.
Will you SHARE 'this REALIZATION' with us here? Or, is this just MORE of this 'pointing to the truth', and not actually 'the truth' AT ALL, intellectualization, which you talk about above?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm It is not something that I can tell you about because it is mostly taking on different perspective or approach. Practically speaking, much of it knowing the limits of knowing. When I say that you can not know anything [in absolute terms], this is true.
LOL So, now, you are NOT 'pointing to the truth of the matter', but actually TELLING us what 'the truth of the matter' IS now, correct?

Also, do you SEE ANY CONTRADICTION, AT ALL, when you say, "you can not know ANY thing [in absolute terms]", and, "this IS TRUE"?

If you can NOT, then I will point 'it' out and show you. Whenever ANY one says, "This is true", then they mean 'that' IN ABSOLUTE TERMS. So, what you have essentially said and STATED is, "You can not know anything and this is absolutely true". Which either means 'we', that is; EVERY one besides you can NOT know ANY thing [in absolute terms] but 'you' can, OR, absolutely EVERY one can NOT know ANY thing [in absolute terms], and this IS TRUE [in absolute terms]. Feel FREE to pick one, or SHOW that there is NO contradiction here, by EXPLAINING what you ACTUALLY MEAN.

By the way, the above was ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of ANOTHER one 'trying to' CLAIM there are NO truths, NO absolute truths, NO one and only truths, BUT WHILE proposing, unconsciously, that THEIR CLAIM is a one and only absolute truth.

The CONTRADICTIONS speak for themselves.
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm All things knowable are in constant flux. Therefore, even if we had the intellectual capacity to process an infinite amount information [which, of course, we don't] there are a host of other issues that prevent us from accessing reality in any true way.
LOL You here make a claim, that is; "ALL things knowable are in constant flux", and then JUMP straight INTO, 'a conclusion', which, by the way, states "that even if there was something, which there is not", there are other things that prevent up from accessing reality in any true way.

1. What are those supposed and alleged "other things or issues"?

2. Can you REALLY NOT SEE the other CONTRADICTION, in what you are 'trying to' CLAIM here? Which is; "All things knowable are in constant flux", SO there is NOTHING can be FULLY KNOWN or KNOWN [in absolute terms] BUT is the CLAIM, "All things knowable are in constant flux", another knowable thing, which is also in constant flux, or is 'that' a knowable thing, which will NOT change? If the CLAIM, "All things knowable is just ANOTHER CLAIM, in constant flux, then that CLAIM will change, ALSO, and therefore, not really worth expressing, in the beginning.

3. If you are thinking your two sentences here were an 'argument', then you are, very sadly, MISTAKEN. The one and only premise of yours here contradicts itself, and your conclusion here says nothing at all except that "there are other issues that prevent 'you' (and some "others") from accessing reality in any true way", which by itself, is saying NOTHING AT ALL, REALLY, anyway. Also, did you NOTICE that CLAIMING that "you/us are prevented from accessing reality in any true way", IS a CLAIM about reality IN a true way?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm So we must accept our capacity to deal with reality and make the best of it.
You are absolutely FREE to ACCEPT ANY of your capacity and LACK OF capacity absolutely ANY way you like. But TELLING "others" how they MUST ACCEPT 'things' is REALLY a grandiose view of 'you', that is; of your thinking and your ways, correct?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm I [and others] believe the best shot we have is to see things are clearly as possible and react [proact] accordingly.
Is there ANY of 'you', adult human beings, who do NOT believe the best shot you have is to see things as clearly as possible and react [pro-act] accordingly?

If there is ANY one who believes that the best shot they have is to see things as dark or as fuzzy or as murky as possible and/or react NOT accordingly?

If yes, then who are 'you' or 'they'?

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm This is one of the main benefits of meditation. It simply filters out the non-sense and allows a more unobstructed view.
SO, what EXCUSES, or reasons, have you go for your OBVIOUSLY short and narrowed sighted obstructed view of things here?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm All of this I have written is probably not even close to what it actually is but these are the limitations we must all live with when we communicate using the intellectual.
This is WHY I continually suggest that 'you', human beings, STOP LOOKING AT and SEEING things, through and from those ALREADY previously gained 'thoughts' within those bodies, and just START LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things' from thee Truly OPEN perspective ONLY. That way you will GAIN thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm The greatest teachers in the non-intellectual sphere are those who can simplify their teaching down to the absolute basics...thus, Absolute Simplicity is Absolute Truth.
YET it is 'you' who CLAIMS that what you say here is AN IMPOSSIBILITY. So, who has been "teaching" 'you'?
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bahman
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Re: Responsibility

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:19 pm
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am How do you resist "love", 'hate', 'revenge', et cetera'?

If you inform the rest of humanity HOW you do this, and thus HOW this IS DONE, and they follow you, then this would prevent a LOT of Wrong doing by 'you', human beings.
I use my mind to prevent acting according to emotions only.
Who and what are 'you', EXACTLY? How does the relationship between 'you' and "your mind" work, EXACTLY?
I am the mind plus the body.
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am And, if you have to use a thing, that you own/have control over, then how EXACTLY does that "mind" of "yours" prevent 'you' from acting according to emotions only.

Are you able to explain the actual process, so that "others" can learn from this?
I simply say no to the emotions when I see it is not appropriate. It is a matter of maturity.
Age
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm In one sense you are correct.
In what sense?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm My words are pointing to something else.
AND, what 'that' IS, contrary to popular BELIEF in the days when this was written, can be very EASILY and very SIMPLY KNOWN, and , in fact, IS ALREADY KNOWN.
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm You might consider opening your mind to alternative ways.
When, and if, you find out and KNOW what the 'mind' is, then this very OLD contradiction is very humorous to keep observing and witnessing.
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm This has been around for at least 2500 years.
What does the 'this' word refer to, EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:18 pm Think there might be something to it?
What WILL BE FOUND is there is FAR MORE to 'it', which CAN BE explained Truly SIMPLY, then 'you' could have even imagined, in the day when this was written to 'you'.
Age
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Re: Responsibility

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:57 am
Age wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:19 pm
I use my mind to prevent acting according to emotions only.
Who and what are 'you', EXACTLY? How does the relationship between 'you' and "your mind" work, EXACTLY?
I am the mind plus the body.
I have asked you this previously, How can 'you' have "your mind" IF 'you' are 'the mind'?

And, if 'you', the person, is the body, then 'you' are 'less of a person' if, let us say, there is an arm or a leg missing from that body.
bahman wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:57 am
Age wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:04 am And, if you have to use a thing, that you own/have control over, then how EXACTLY does that "mind" of "yours" prevent 'you' from acting according to emotions only.

Are you able to explain the actual process, so that "others" can learn from this?
I simply say no to the emotions when I see it is not appropriate. It is a matter of maturity.
So, WHY are you STILL continually doing so many Wrong and abusive things in Life?
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