simplicity wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:54 pm
230 years is not a very long time and for the first hundred eleven years after the ratification of the constitution (1789-1900) there was more individual freedom and growth of economic prosperity than ever before in history, perhaps even to the time of the progressive war-monger Teddy Roosevelt. Then came Wilson, the depression and World War I, and the government became powerful enough to do what was always intended (see Hamilton) under the Constitution, the absolute power to confiscate wealth to itself in the form of taxes and tariffs to finance its militarism and forever wars. There is much less individual freedom and opportunity for financial success to individuals in the U.S. today than there was to the colonialists under British rule before the revolution.
The fact that prices were cheaper on January 1, 1900 then they were on January 1, 1800 says it all. I get it but much has changed since the 19th century. I am not suggesting that this is the ideal, only that its the least dirty shirt in the laundry basket.
That's probably true, but a dirty shirt is still a dirty shirt. Why settle for wearing a dirty shirt? One can always wash their own. Good is not the equivalent of, "less bad."
simplicity wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:54 pmThere is no, "en masse," there are only individual human beings. To judge them as anything else is a kind of prejudice, like racism. No one is the individual they are because they are a member of some collective, like, "mankind." The distinguishing characteristic of human beings is that every one is a volitional being and what they are and how the live must be chosen by each individual.
So you don't subscribe to the idea that there is group mentality or group behavior, that is, that individuals behave differently in groups?
Have you ever been to a football game with 75K people or a rock concert with 150K people? How about what took place in Nazi Germany?
Groups bring out the worst in individuals as most of them [ I believe] tend toward pure evil.
I know there are, "group," mentalities. Very few people think for themselves. Almost everyone finds it easier to be a member of something, believing, thinking, and doing what everyone else around them does, simply accepting everything their teachers, and favorite, "authorities," tell them. Its the explanation for every religion, ideology, racial and ethnic prejudice, political party, and nationalism. It's the inevitable consequence of every individual who chooses not to think for himself.
You are right! It's the democratic principle, isn't it? Our gang is better than your gang because there's more of us. When the biggest (or most duplicitous or violent) gang wins, it's called the government.
simplicity wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:54 pmThose I would consider, "virtuous," are those who embrace their own nature as volitional beings, neither desiring or seeking anything in life but what they can achieve and acquire by their own effort, knowing all they are and all they enjoy is theirs because they have earned it. They are not virtuous to meet anyone else's standards or for the sake of anyone else's welfare, but the requirement of their own nature to know they are not a parasite, dependent on others, and that they are worthy of associating with and enjoying others because they are never a threat to anyone else and all their relationships are voluntary and benevolent, because they have nothing to gain from anyone else that is not to the benefit both to those others and to one's self.
Are there many like that? Certainly not, and you almost never hear about them, because they are busy living their lives and have no interest in social/political affairs and no interest in interfering in the lives of others. Nevertheless, there are literally millions of such individuals, and every one is a unique individual living their own life as they choose. I doubt you would consider them virtuous, because most have no use for laws or social conventions, seldom enjoy the insipid pleasures and activities that fill the lives of most people, and do not embrace or support any particular philosophies or ideologies.
You are quite the idealist!
Would you include yourself among the individuals you describe above?
I suppose I am. But it's my ideal. I have no desire, or belief, it is possible to impose it on anyone else. But it's really not an, "ideal," in the usual sense, not some noble, "cause," or, "morality." It's totally selfish, motivated by my own desire to never settle for less than the best I am able to be, have, and achieve in life.
simplicity wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:14 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:54 pmNo doubt, but [and as you rightly pointed out] 99.9% of the population doesn't feel like doing much of anything [other than attending to their addictions], so that's the way it goes.
That's true, but it is not a condition that is imposed on them. It's what they choose. They don't really matter to the .1% except to be recognized. (Most of the 99.9% are not dangerous, and in their way often very interesting, even productive. The .1% has no problem dealing with most of the them, even enjoying them and benefiting them, though most of the 99.9% despise and resent the .1%, especially because of their success.)
I agree with the spirit of what you say but I believe it to be significantly more complicated. What exactly do you believe you or I have within us that led to our success? Just wanted to do it? Smarter than most? More industrious? Had more help along the way? Went to better schools?
When I was very young the question you just asked used to bewilder me. It took two forms: 1. Why do so many people believe what cannot possibly be true, and, 2. why do so many people do so many self-destructive things? Neither of those questions bothers me any longer and the reason for that is my realization that how others chose to use their minds and life are just none of my business.
Nevertheless, over the years, some of the reasons for the irrationality of humanity in general have revealed themselves.
The first of those reasons is the simple fact that for every possible right answer, there an infinite number of possible wrong answers, and mankind is bent on discovering all the wrong ones and embracing them, because the wrong one's are usually simpler and are less troublesome than the truth, which requires hard work and rigorous reason. "Pat," answers are much easier and less troublesome to simply accept.
The second reason is more fundamental. Life is hard and reality is demanding and dangerous, and not very, "nice." To live requires constant effort, learning all one possibly can, thinking as well as one possibly can, and constant effort to provide oneself with the requirements of life. Reality is ruthless and unforgiving and one either conforms to the requirements of reality or suffers the consequences. It's not the kind of world most people want, and reality refuses to provide what they want.
What most people want is world that is safe, where nothing is, "too hard," where they can do just anything without suffering bad consequences, where, "never is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day." But that is not the world they live in. So, they are ready to believe and support anything that promises to provide that kind of world, whether it is a God, or a government, or both, and almost every religion, political philosophy, and ideology has promoted the lie that some scheme can make reality, or society, what one would like it to be.
Why doesn't everyone realize that their life is theirs and that it will only be whatever they make of it? I don't know, and do not believe what anyone chooses is determined by something else, like the inherited traits, or culture, or economic station, or chemicals in the brain, or evolution, or any of the other excuses made for human behavior. I cannot read minds and do not know what thought processes guide other's choices, I only know it is their own beliefs, values, and thoughts that determine their behavior.
I know, in my case, from the third grade on, I never took the word of any adult merely on their say so, never believed anything unless to the best of my knowledge and reason, I understood why it was true. I made many mistakes, but they were my mistakes so could recognize what was wrong with them and correct them when I learned more (which one who only believes what they are told cannot do). I never wanted anything I could not feel I had earned or won by my own effort and achievement. (I've never liked gifts.) Many others who believe and live as I do, were just like me, the way they always lived and believed. Others I know came to a realization (often after a disastrous consequence of living unrealistically) that their life depended solely on how they used their mind and abilities and that their every failure and success was their own doing. Most never come to that point in their life.