Limitations

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Limitations

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:46 pm
simplicity wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:01 pm Not that there aren't really excellent teachers out there, ...
If someone calls themself a teacher and practices their profession in a GSDP (Government Child Day Prison) aka, "public school," they are not a teacher, they are a propaganda spreader and mind destroyer. If there are any, "excellent teachers," they aren't employees of any government agency.
Hard to argue with that idea.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Limitations

Post by RCSaunders »

simplicity wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:17 pm Don't worry so much about what other people think. Learn the old fashioned way by doing the hard work yourself.
That is absolutely correct.

Learning is hard and requires ruthless continuous effort, just like life itself. But that advice is canceled by the premise of your OP. What's the point of making the effort to learn if, "the bottom-line is that the human mind is simply incapable of accessing reality in any substantial manner," and you do not, "believe we can truly know anything." That message does not encourage learning, it encourages surrender to ignorance. "You can't learn anything true. Give up and let you feelings or whims or gullible beliefs in your teachers and authorities do your thinking for you."

You are right in your OP, that the problems of the world are the result of human ignorance and stupidity. You are not the first to notice that mankind is hopelessly idiotic. H.L. Mencken said:
So long as there are men in the world, 99 percent of them will be idiots, and so long as 99 percent of them are idiots they will thirst for religion, and so long as they thirst for religion, it will remain a weapon over them. I see no way out. If you blow up one specific faith, they will embrace another.
He referred to religion, but it applies equally to any ideology. As he also said:

The costliest of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.

But the idiocy or humanity is not some intrinsic shortcoming, it is a chosen condition:
The vast majority of human beings are ignorant, stupid, and superstitious.

It is not a necessary condition. People choose to be what they are. They are mostly poor, unhappy, and always in some kind of trouble but never make the connection between their misery and their own wrong choices. To be stupid, ignorant, and superstitious is a chosen failure.

No one has to be ignorant. They could all learn more than they do. Ignorant does not mean not knowing anything, it means not learning all one can learn, or learning as little as one thinks they can get away with.

No one has to be stupid. They could all think better than they do. Stupid does not mean unable to think, it means not thinking as well as one can and not bothering to learn how.

No one has to be gullible. They could all see what they believe cannot possibly be true. Superstitious does not mean being afraid of black cats and Friday the 13th, it means believing things without evidence or reason, based on nothing more than one's feelings, sentiments, irrational fears, baseless impressions, or, credulity in some experts or authorities.

Few ever make a real effort to learn and understand much of real intellectual importance. Most simply believe whatever they have learned, or "picked up," along the way, from their teachers, peers, or the media, and are satisfied to believe what everyone else in their personal click believes. Some do desire to know more, to understand what the world and their own life in it means and how to live successfully and happily. To find the truth they will turn to those who claim to be authorities in knowledge and truth, but in fact, are mostly con-men selling lies and deception.
And the con-men always uses the same argument. "You cannot really know the truth, your mind is incapable of that kind of knowledge, so listen to me and I'll tell you what to believe." And most people do.
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Limitations

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pm You are right in your OP, that the problems of the world are the result of human ignorance and stupidity. You are not the first to notice that mankind is hopelessly idiotic. H.L. Mencken said:
So long as there are men in the world, 99 percent of them will be idiots, and so long as 99 percent of them are idiots they will thirst for religion, and so long as they thirst for religion, it will remain a weapon over them. I see no way out. If you blow up one specific faith, they will embrace another.
He referred to religion, but it applies equally to any ideology.
There are few who are able to transcend the intellect to see what is much closer to the truth.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pmFew ever make a real effort to learn and understand much of real intellectual importance. Most simply believe whatever they have learned, or "picked up," along the way, from their teachers, peers, or the media, and are satisfied to believe what everyone else in their personal click believes. Some do desire to know more, to understand what the world and their own life in it means and how to live successfully and happily. To find the truth they will turn to those who claim to be authorities in knowledge and truth, but in fact, are mostly con-men selling lies and deception.
But...on the whole, these folks seem to be a great deal more happy than those who have chosen to seek the truth. I have not decided which path might be better [on the whole], as I only know the later.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pmAnd the con-men always uses the same argument. "You cannot really know the truth, your mind is incapable of that kind of knowledge, so listen to me and I'll tell you what to believe." And most people do.
You can say the above if you provide context, i.e., are we talking relative or Absolute truth? Although nobody can understand either, an earnest student can realize the later [given enough time]. Just the same, we must all live [and hopefully thrive within the human sphere].

As I have mentioned previously, the key is understanding the limitations of our capacity and then maximally exploiting its potential. You seem to understand this essential point [which so few are willing to consider].

My dad [who just passed just a few weeks ago] had this sign on his desk that you might appreciate.

"Highly Successful People Are Those Willing To Do What Everybody Else Doesn't Feel Like Doing"
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Limitations

Post by RCSaunders »

simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pm You are right in your OP, that the problems of the world are the result of human ignorance and stupidity. You are not the first to notice that mankind is hopelessly idiotic. H.L. Mencken said:
So long as there are men in the world, 99 percent of them will be idiots, and so long as 99 percent of them are idiots they will thirst for religion, and so long as they thirst for religion, it will remain a weapon over them. I see no way out. If you blow up one specific faith, they will embrace another.
He referred to religion, but it applies equally to any ideology.
There are few who are able to transcend the intellect to see what is much closer to the truth.
There are certainly few who do, but I will not assume there is some intellectual defect that prevents them learning more and thinking better than they do. Everyone must choose how to use the resources available to them and the abilities they have. Most squander their lives on the immediate satisfaction of the shallow desires and never take the long view.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pmFew ever make a real effort to learn and understand much of real intellectual importance. Most simply believe whatever they have learned, or "picked up," along the way, from their teachers, peers, or the media, and are satisfied to believe what everyone else in their personal click believes. Some do desire to know more, to understand what the world and their own life in it means and how to live successfully and happily. To find the truth they will turn to those who claim to be authorities in knowledge and truth, but in fact, are mostly con-men selling lies and deception.
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am But...on the whole, these folks seem to be a great deal more happy than those who have chosen to seek the truth. I have not decided which path might be better [on the whole], as I only know the later.
I do not judge how others choose to live their lives or whether it satisfies their human requirements. If living in squalor, always poor or in trouble, constantly complaining about how hard life is, never knowing what true accomplishment and achievement are, more power to them. Most of the world is next to starvation, (central and west Africa, Bangladesh, Venezuela), living under repressive governments (about half the world), enjoying the blessings of radical Islamic slavery (North Africa, Most of the Middle East, and all the "--stans") or constant threats of terrorism and atrocities (Nigeria, for example), homeless, drug addicted, neurotic (do you know how many people see a psychiatrist every week in most Western countries--they don't see them because they are happy with their lives), and most of them are hopelessly in debt. Would that kind of life make you happy? (The question is rhetorical, not personal.) You think they are happier than the few million people in this world who are living productive self-fulfilled lives, achieving and being all they can be as free individuals? I don't.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pmAnd the con-men always uses the same argument. "You cannot really know the truth, your mind is incapable of that kind of knowledge, so listen to me and I'll tell you what to believe." And most people do.
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am You can say the above if you provide context, i.e., are we talking relative or Absolute truth?....
There is only truth. There are not different kinds of truth, but I do not choose to argue with you about that, so cannot comment on it here. If you wish to discuss the nature of, "truth," it ought to be a different discussion.
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am As I have mentioned previously, the key is understanding the limitations of our capacity ....
We are not going to agree on this, either. There are no fundamental limitations to human intellect and I think it is wrong to discourage others from using there's by teaching them they cannot learn and know with certainty all they need to know to live successfully as a human beings in this world.
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am My dad [who just passed just a few weeks ago] had this sign on his desk that you might appreciate.
"Highly Successful People Are Those Willing To Do What Everybody Else Doesn't Feel Like Doing"
I' m truly sorry you lost your Dad. I'm sure I would have liked him. I certainly agree with that sentiment.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Limitations

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:46 pm
simplicity wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:01 pm Not that there aren't really excellent teachers out there, ...
If someone calls themself a teacher and practices their profession in a GSDP (Government Child Day Prison) aka, "public school," they are not a teacher, they are a propaganda spreader and mind destroyer. If there are any, "excellent teachers," they aren't employees of any government agency.
It is true that teachers are sometimes frustrated by government rules and regulations notably in teachers' having to submit extremely detailed reports on activities and progress in the classroom and as those affect individual pupils.

However teachers in properly government inspected schools are paid to teach according to child-centred methods. This means that the child and his subjective experience matters more than any culturally imposed belief or practice. I am talking about education in a democratic country,such as is the UK, not schools where indoctrination is going on such as in Nazi Germany when all children had to belong to the Hitler Youth.

If you think your education system where you live imposes extreme right or left wing religious or political ideas on children then you should do something about it if you can.
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Limitations

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:10 am I do not judge how others choose to live their lives or whether it satisfies their human requirements. If living in squalor, always poor or in trouble, constantly complaining about how hard life is, never knowing what true accomplishment and achievement are, more power to them. Most of the world is next to starvation, (central and west Africa, Bangladesh, Venezuela), living under repressive governments (about half the world), enjoying the blessings of radical Islamic slavery (North Africa, Most of the Middle East, and all the "--stans") or constant threats of terrorism and atrocities (Nigeria, for example), homeless, drug addicted, neurotic (do you know how many people see a psychiatrist every week in most Western countries--they don't see them because they are happy with their lives), and most of them are hopelessly in debt. Would that kind of life make you happy? (The question is rhetorical, not personal.) You think they are happier than the few million people in this world who are living productive self-fulfilled lives, achieving and being all they can be as free individuals? I don't.
It's not all or none, you know [have you be talking with my wife? :)]. There are many people who occupy the middle who have "enough" and live reasonably well. Although I would never desire to change places with any of them, I have chatted with thousands of people like this and they seem more 'ok' that those who are attempting to go it alone and figure it out [despite great success]. Most highly successful people are not overly happy folks [although they may be more content and more fulfilled in many respects].
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:49 pm There is only truth. There are not different kinds of truth, but I do not choose to argue with you about that, so cannot comment on it here. If you wish to discuss the nature of, "truth," it ought to be a different discussion.
Understanding how another understands "The Truth" will cut through much of the misinterpretation that pervades these on-line conversations. This is a discussion that needs to be had.
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:29 am My dad [who just passed just a few weeks ago] had this sign on his desk that you might appreciate.
"Highly Successful People Are Those Willing To Do What Everybody Else Doesn't Feel Like Doing"
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 amI' m truly sorry you lost your Dad. I'm sure I would have liked him. I certainly agree with that sentiment.
Thank you for the kind words. He had a long prosperous life and a peaceful death. Can't hope for much more than that.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Limitations

Post by Sculptor »

simplicity wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:07 pm I'm not sure too many folks out there would disagree that we live in a glutenous era..
No. I find it quite easy to avoid gluten.
You can be totally gluttonous and avoid wheat based produce completely.
.food, drugs and alcohol, sex, money, things of all sorts, but the king of all excess must be...thinking. People have used the [seemingly] logarithmic increases in information as a springboard once again diving into the deep end forgetting that there is very little water in the pool.
You can easily avoid logs too. I much prefer to use more modern means to keep warm.
And has for increased, I much prefer exponential increases, they are ore fun.

The bottom..
ooohher - rude word
...-line is that the human mind is simply incapable of accessing reality in any substantial manner, so no matter how much data is accumulated, [and although conclusions drawn might be a little more accurate], one might think that Einstein clones are popping-up like weeds after a gully-washer. It truly is amazing to listen/read what people believe they now know having become internet experts in every damn thing.
Now you are just confusing yourself.

Until people learn the most important lesson [what their minuscule human intellect is capable of], they will continue to pontificate about this, that, and the other thing until others can no longer tolerate their mindless ramblings.
You could just stop pontificating!

What can be known [of any significance] has been since the beginning. You are not going to be able to think your way out of it.
Out of what?
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Limitations

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:51 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:46 pm
simplicity wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:01 pm Not that there aren't really excellent teachers out there, ...
If someone calls themself a teacher and practices their profession in a GSDP (Government Child Day Prison) aka, "public school," they are not a teacher, they are a propaganda spreader and mind destroyer. If there are any, "excellent teachers," they aren't employees of any government agency.
It is true that teachers are sometimes frustrated by government rules and regulations notably in teachers' having to submit extremely detailed reports on activities and progress in the classroom and as those affect individual pupils.

However teachers in properly government inspected schools are paid to teach according to child-centred methods. This means that the child and his subjective experience matters more than any culturally imposed belief or practice. I am talking about education in a democratic country,such as is the UK, not schools where indoctrination is going on such as in Nazi Germany when all children had to belong to the Hitler Youth.

If you think your education system where you live imposes extreme right or left wing religious or political ideas on children then you should do something about it if you can.
The problem with government education is much more fundamental than that. It wouldn't matter what the curriculum is, its the idea that an agency of force (which is what all government is) can take peoples' children away from them by coercive threats, throw those children together with any others the government chooses (over which neither the children or their parents have any choice), and force them into some regimented behavior that determines what they can say or not, what to do and when (be in this room at this time, stand when instructed, sit when instructed, learn this when instructed, recite this when instructed) to be taught whatever the government chooses, (over which the parents have no say).

The government then forces others (with threats against individuals and their property) to pay for these atrocities. Any individual that can be part of that system, knowing their pay is stolen from tax payers and their subjects are not willing participants is essentially a thief and kidnapper.

I suspect you have no idea where the idea of government education came from. It was the invention of the Prussian philosopher, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, who said, "The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will," with the sole purpose of producing a compliant society of individuals useful to the state (government). It was never about providing children with knowledge or the ability to think and learn. In most cases it has been just the opposite and has been magnificently successful.

See John Taylor Gatto's The Public School Nightmare for a short history of how the Prussian model of education came to the United States. It's worse in Europe.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Limitations

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:25 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 amI' m truly sorry you lost your Dad. I'm sure I would have liked him. I certainly agree with that sentiment.
Thank you for the kind words. He had a long prosperous life and a peaceful death. Can't hope for much more than that.
That's from RCSaunders not me.

My condolences on your loss.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Limitations

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:40 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:51 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:46 pm
If someone calls themself a teacher and practices their profession in a GSDP (Government Child Day Prison) aka, "public school," they are not a teacher, they are a propaganda spreader and mind destroyer. If there are any, "excellent teachers," they aren't employees of any government agency.
It is true that teachers are sometimes frustrated by government rules and regulations notably in teachers' having to submit extremely detailed reports on activities and progress in the classroom and as those affect individual pupils.

However teachers in properly government inspected schools are paid to teach according to child-centred methods. This means that the child and his subjective experience matters more than any culturally imposed belief or practice. I am talking about education in a democratic country,such as is the UK, not schools where indoctrination is going on such as in Nazi Germany when all children had to belong to the Hitler Youth.

If you think your education system where you live imposes extreme right or left wing religious or political ideas on children then you should do something about it if you can.
The problem with government education is much more fundamental than that. It wouldn't matter what the curriculum is, its the idea that an agency of force (which is what all government is) can take peoples' children away from them by coercive threats, throw those children together with any others the government chooses (over which neither the children or their parents have any choice), and force them into some regimented behavior that determines what they can say or not, what to do and when (be in this room at this time, stand when instructed, sit when instructed, learn this when instructed, recite this when instructed) to be taught whatever the government chooses, (over which the parents have no say).

The government then forces others (with threats against individuals and their property) to pay for these atrocities. Any individual that can be part of that system, knowing their pay is stolen from tax payers and their subjects are not willing participants is essentially a thief and kidnapper.

I suspect you have no idea where the idea of government education came from. It was the invention of the Prussian philosopher, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, who said, "The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will," with the sole purpose of producing a compliant society of individuals useful to the state (government). It was never about providing children with knowledge or the ability to think and learn. In most cases it has been just the opposite and has been magnificently successful.

See John Taylor Gatto's The Public School Nightmare for a short history of how the Prussian model of education came to the United States. It's worse in Europe.
Extract:
The problem with government education is much more fundamental than that. It wouldn't matter what the curriculum is, its the idea that an agency of force (which is what all government is) can take peoples' children away from them by coercive threats, throw those children together with any others the government chooses (over which neither the children or their parents have any choice), and force them into some regimented behavior that determines what they can say or not, what to do and when (be in this room at this time, stand when instructed, sit when

That is true. However it's inevitable there will be a ruling elite in all human societies.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Limitations

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:16 am That is true. However it's inevitable there will be a ruling elite in all human societies.
You're right, Belinda. That is sadly true. So long as the vast majority of mankind longs for something or someone else to provide them safety and security and guarantees of a nice life in which they don't have to work too hard, or learn too much, or think for themselves, guided by their leaders, authorities, and, "priests of knowledge," (teachers), there will be governments. Of course the systems of, "education," run by governments will always produce more of that kind of people.
Ansiktsburk
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Central Scandinavia

Re: Limitations

Post by Ansiktsburk »

Been reading your later posts with interest, Belinda and RC.
Pierre Bourdieu, sociolgist and philosopher, had interesting things to say on how states form the thinking of humans, and how the schools were instrumental in making that happen. I am, however, not convinced that that is only a bad thing. Probably being, like Bourdieu himself, from humbler beginnings with few academics or wealthy people around. Not being a part of that elite...
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Limitations

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:27 am
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:25 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 amI' m truly sorry you lost your Dad. I'm sure I would have liked him. I certainly agree with that sentiment.
Thank you for the kind words. He had a long prosperous life and a peaceful death. Can't hope for much more than that.
That's from RCSaunders not me.

My condolences on your loss.
Thank you, as well...
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Limitations

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:42 am
Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:16 am That is true. However it's inevitable there will be a ruling elite in all human societies.
You're right, Belinda. That is sadly true. So long as the vast majority of mankind longs for something or someone else to provide them safety and security and guarantees of a nice life in which they don't have to work too hard, or learn too much, or think for themselves, guided by their leaders, authorities, and, "priests of knowledge," (teachers), there will be governments. Of course the systems of, "education," run by governments will always produce more of that kind of people.
Bring on the revolution.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Limitations

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:21 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:42 am
Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:16 am That is true. However it's inevitable there will be a ruling elite in all human societies.
You're right, Belinda. That is sadly true. So long as the vast majority of mankind longs for something or someone else to provide them safety and security and guarantees of a nice life in which they don't have to work too hard, or learn too much, or think for themselves, guided by their leaders, authorities, and, "priests of knowledge," (teachers), there will be governments. Of course the systems of, "education," run by governments will always produce more of that kind of people.
Bring on the revolution.
It won't happen, but the only, "revolution," that could possibly improve anything would be an individual revolution--every individual rebelling against all authority and dependence on others, choosing to seek only to be the best one can be, seeking nothing but one can achieve and produce by their own effort, engaging in no relationship with others that is not totally voluntary and to the mutual benefit of all those in that relationship. There is no social solution.
Post Reply