Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Sculptor
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:57 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:28 am
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:16 am
It says almost. We know about the correlation between mental phenomena and the matter processes in the brain but we don't know how a single experience is possible. Whether it is smell, thought, decision,...
What's you r point?
Is there a mechanism that tells you that consciousness arises from the matter process in the brain? If yes then it means that consciousness is a function of properties of parts of the brain. In another word, parts of the brain are conscious as well. If not, we are dealing with magic.
Do you want it to be magic?
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bahman
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:02 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:57 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:28 am
What's you r point?
Is there a mechanism that tells you that consciousness arises from the matter process in the brain? If yes then it means that consciousness is a function of properties of parts of the brain. In another word, parts of the brain are conscious as well. If not, we are dealing with magic.
Do you want it to be magic?
No. Magic is absurd.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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bahman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:20 am We definitely do not know how the brain works. All we know is the correlation between some mental phenomena and matter process in the brain.
I think the issue is not being careful to discriminate between what is known about the physiology of the brain, about which there is a great deal of knowledge, and consciousness, about which there is very little knowledge.

You are wrong to say very little is known about the brain, because neurology has discovered so much about the biological and physiological nature and functions of the brain. What most people get confused by is the fact there is a direct relationship between conscious experience and the physical brain. The confusion arises from the assumption that because there is that relationship it must mean the observable behavior of the brain is the explanation for the conscious experience.

That confusion is an example of the mistaken view of, "cause," which is correctly described, "correlation does not mean cause." It is in the area of conscious experience, including perception, memory, thinking, knowledge, and volition that nothing is or can be known in terms of the brain's physiology, because they cannot be observed, examined, or studied by any scientific method. All that can be studied is the behavior of the brain in relation to the testimony of conscious individuals, and all they can report is what they consciously experience, which is not science at all.

You are absolutely right that even those aspects of conscious experience that do depend on brain functions are not understood at all, including especially, memory and volition.
simplicity
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:06 pm You are wrong to say very little is known about the brain, because neurology has discovered so much about the biological and physiological nature and functions of the brain.
In a thousand years from now, do you believe that what is "known" about the brain will still hold-up?

All things knowable are in constant flux. If you don't understand the transient nature of knowledge, you will be forever be learning that which no longer exists.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:06 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:20 am We definitely do not know how the brain works. All we know is the correlation between some mental phenomena and matter process in the brain.
I think the issue is not being careful to discriminate between what is known about the physiology of the brain, about which there is a great deal of knowledge, and consciousness, about which there is very little knowledge.

You are wrong to say very little is known about the brain, because neurology has discovered so much about the biological and physiological nature and functions of the brain. What most people get confused by is the fact there is a direct relationship between conscious experience and the physical brain. The confusion arises from the assumption that because there is that relationship it must mean the observable behavior of the brain is the explanation for the conscious experience.

That confusion is an example of the mistaken view of, "cause," which is correctly described, "correlation does not mean cause." It is in the area of conscious experience, including perception, memory, thinking, knowledge, and volition that nothing is or can be known in terms of the brain's physiology, because they cannot be observed, examined, or studied by any scientific method. All that can be studied is the behavior of the brain in relation to the testimony of conscious individuals, and all they can report is what they consciously experience, which is not science at all.

You are absolutely right that even those aspects of conscious experience that do depend on brain functions are not understood at all, including especially, memory and volition.
By we don't know how the brain works I mean we do not know how the matter processes in the brain give rise to consciousness phenomena.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:31 pm All things knowable are in constant flux. If you don't understand the transient nature of knowledge, you will be forever be learning that which no longer exists.
Where did this idea come from? Why is knowledge so hated? You certainly didn't come to this conclusion on your own and had to have been taught it by some academic philosophy like post modernism or some mystic Eastern 'philosophy.'

Not only are things known that will never change they are known with certainty. Whatever is known about the past, every fact of history, will always be true and never change. Abraham Lincoln was assassinate on April 15, 1865 and it will always be true that Abraham Lincoln was assassinate on April 15, 1865. Literally millions of things are known that will always be true, many that were not known at all just 150 years ago, like that facts, electric lighting and motors are possible, that heavier than air flight is possible, that geo-stationary satellites are possible, that getting to the moon is possible, the nature of electricity, X-rays, lasers, that painless surgery is possible, that there are bacteria and that some cause disease, that sulfur will never be bismuth (or any of the chemical elements ever anything other than what they are). The fact that the blood flows out from the heart to the whole body and back to the heart will never not be true. The fact masses accelerate toward one another will never not be true.

Reality is not some amorphous thing contingent on mysterious causes that can all change at any moment making everything one knows into some terrifying unpredictable horror such as your view would make it.

See my article, "Certain Knowledge."
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:01 pm By we don't know how the brain works I mean we do not know how the matter processes in the brain give rise to consciousness phenomena.
You never will because they don't. Consciousness is not a product of anything else anymore that any physical property is the product of somethng else. Consciousness is not a, "thing," or, "substance," or, "entity," it is a property, a characteristic of some living organisms, just as its weight, shape, temperature, and behavior are physical characteristics.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:02 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:57 am
Is there a mechanism that tells you that consciousness arises from the matter process in the brain? If yes then it means that consciousness is a function of properties of parts of the brain. In another word, parts of the brain are conscious as well. If not, we are dealing with magic.
Do you want it to be magic?
No. Magic is absurd.
When the atom is split, unimaginable amounts of energy are released. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

When an object revolves around a planet it just keep going without failling. It stays on course for millions of years. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

Really WTF are you expecting?
simplicity
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

Post by simplicity »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:31 pm All things knowable are in constant flux. If you don't understand the transient nature of knowledge, you will be forever be learning that which no longer exists.
Where did this idea come from? Why is knowledge so hated? You certainly didn't come to this conclusion on your own and had to have been taught it by some academic philosophy like post modernism or some mystic Eastern 'philosophy.'

Not only are things known that will never change they are known with certainty. Whatever is known about the past, every fact of history, will always be true and never change. Abraham Lincoln was assassinate on April 15, 1865 and it will always be true that Abraham Lincoln was assassinate on April 15, 1865. Literally millions of things are known that will always be true, many that were not known at all just 150 years ago, like that facts, electric lighting and motors are possible, that heavier than air flight is possible, that geo-stationary satellites are possible, that getting to the moon is possible, the nature of electricity, X-rays, lasers, that painless surgery is possible, that there are bacteria and that some cause disease, that sulfur will never be bismuth (or any of the chemical elements ever anything other than what they are). The fact that the blood flows out from the heart to the whole body and back to the heart will never not be true. The fact masses accelerate toward one another will never not be true.

Reality is not some amorphous thing contingent on mysterious causes that can all change at any moment making everything one knows into some terrifying unpredictable horror such as your view would make it.
The knowledge you speak of is only relative to a system of thought that is impermanent. Once a "better way" of doing [everything] becomes available, all the examples you pointed out will no longer have life. The is the nature of ALL things...they come and they go.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:17 pm The knowledge you speak of is only relative to a system of thought that is impermanent.
Where do such absurd ideas come from. Knowledge consists of the identification of that which exists and its nature. It begins with one's direct perception of what exists, the recognition of the entities perceived which are identified by means of concepts, and all actual knowledge is about those identified existents.

I have no idea what you think knowledge is, but it certainly is not what you are describing. See my articles:

"Perception"

"The Nature of the Mind"

"Epistemology, Concepts"

"Epistemology, Propositions"

There is no, "system of thought," such as you imagine.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:13 pm There is no, "system of thought," such as you imagine.
If you are a guy and you like women [in a biblical way], then you cannot deny that there are different systems of thought! :)

As a matter of conjecture, there are as many systems of thought as there are thoughts [infinite]. This is why thinking is in constant flux and cannot be understood [other than in an extremely superficial manner].
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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simplicity wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:10 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:13 pm There is no, "system of thought," such as you imagine.
If you are a guy [ I am assuming you are] and you like women [in a biblical way], then you cannot deny that there are different systems of thought! :)

As a matter of conjecture, there are as many systems of thought as there are thoughts [infinite]. This is why thinking is in constant flux and cannot be understood [other than in an extremely superficial manner].
You have convinced me! I'm now certain you have correctly described what you call thinking. It's not really thinking, but a mishmash of disconnected half-understood concepts that completely explains what you believe. You are absolutely right, anyone who does what you do and mistakes it for thinking knows nothing.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:42 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:01 pm By we don't know how the brain works I mean we do not know how the matter processes in the brain give rise to consciousness phenomena.
You never will because they don't. Consciousness is not a product of anything else anymore that any physical property is the product of somethng else. Consciousness is not a, "thing," or, "substance," or, "entity," it is a property, a characteristic of some living organisms, just as its weight, shape, temperature, and behavior are physical characteristics.
I know that consciousness is a property. The question is why something is conscious, like a human, and something else is not, like a rock.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:02 pm
Do you want it to be magic?
No. Magic is absurd.
When the atom is split, unimaginable amounts of energy are released. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

When an object revolves around a planet it just keep going without failling. It stays on course for millions of years. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

Really WTF are you expecting?
You are right that we don't know what are physical properties of matter at which the behavior of matter is defined in terms of them. The question however is that what are the properties of parts of matter (please notice that electron and proton are not conscious)? The next question is how consciousness can be the property of matter in some configuration when we accept that parts are not conscious.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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bahman wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:48 pm
No. Magic is absurd.
When the atom is split, unimaginable amounts of energy are released. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

When an object revolves around a planet it just keep going without failling. It stays on course for millions of years. Science can quantify it and describe it, and even predict it: but in your book "we know very little about atomic physics", because ultimately its just magic.

Really WTF are you expecting?
You are right that we don't know what are physical properties of matter at which the behavior of matter is defined in terms of them. The question however is that what are the properties of parts of matter (please notice that electron and proton are not conscious)? The next question is how consciousness can be the property of matter in some configuration when we accept that parts are not conscious.
Many things have properties which their component parts do not. A wheel, an alternator, a battery, a crankcase etc.. none of them have the properties of a car. A lettuce is not a salad.
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