Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Lacewing wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:05 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:45 pm...
Do you think everything is made up of energy? Even that which appears solid, static, or dead?
Not sure why you are asking me this question, or even where that idea comes from. It certainly isn't my idea.

Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter. There is no energy sans matter. The idea that matter is made of energy comes from a misinterpretation of Einstein's E=MC^2, which really means any decrease in mass must be directly reflected in an increase in mass of something else due to its being accelerated. The, "energy," of an annihilated neutron in fission produces energy in the form of radiation and heat which are observable only as accelerated matter, and a concomitant increase in its mass.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 pm Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter.
What causes matter to behave?
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Lacewing wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 pm Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter.
What causes matter to behave?
Nothing, "causes," matter to behave, as though something other than the nature of matter itself was the explanation of it's behavior. What anything is, that is, it nature, is whatever it's attributes are, and it is those attributes that determine all an entity's behavior and relationships. One attribute of all physical entities is mass, and the two properties of mass are momentum and gravity. Gravity is just the name Newton gave to the observed fact all entities with moment also accelerate toward each other. In addition to gravity, there is also electro-magnetic attraction and repulsion. Magnetic attraction and repulsion are also forms of acceleration. To measure rates of acceleration, relative to an entity's mass, the metric units of force (mass times acceleration) and energy (potential: force times the distance or dynamic: one half the mass time the velocity squared). So, you see, nothing outside or separate form the physical entities causes their behavior, their own nature determines how they behave relative to all other entities.

[There is no energy except that which is manifest in the behavior of physical entities, as mechanical force, heat, pressure, radiation, or some other form.]

If by, "causes matter to behave," is meant "what is the explanation or correct description of matter's behavior," it may said it is, "energy," so long is it is understood that energy is only an expression of the entity's behavior due to it's own mass, gravitational attraction, and electro-magnetic attracting and repulsion--not something independent of the physical entity's own nature.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:50 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 pm Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter.
What causes matter to behave?
Nothing, "causes," matter to behave...

If by, "causes matter to behave," is meant "what is the explanation or correct description of matter's behavior," it may said it is, "energy," so long is it is understood that energy is only an expression of the entity's behavior due to it's own mass, gravitational attraction, and electro-magnetic attracting and repulsion--not something independent of the physical entity's own nature.
All matter is made of particles, right?
Particles have energy, right?
So why wouldn’t things BE what they’re made of?
Also, why couldn’t/wouldn't there be an exchange of some kind of information, or cooperative activity, or other effect between particles and entities?
uwot
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 amAll matter is made of particles, right?
Particles have energy, right?
So why wouldn’t things BE what they’re made of?
Well, the general consensus is that quantum fields are more fundamental than particles; but there are different ways to interpret 'quantum field'. One is to compare it to the ocean. Energy, as RC Saunders has pointed out, is the work needed to move things. If the ocean is completely flat, there is no energy in it and you won't go anywhere. Any disturbance has the power to move things; a wave for instance will bob you up and down; a whirlpool will draw you towards it. So a wave is analogous to light, a whirlpool is more like a particle. You can make a case that waves and whirlpools are made of energy, but without an ocean, neither would exist.
The problem with such analogies is that the electromagnetic field was assumed to have ocean like properties. If you are running into the waves, your combined speed is more than if you are running away. There's a bigger splash/more energy on the way in, than on the way back to the beach. The same should be true of the electromagnetic field if it is like the ocean. The reasoning was that since the earth is spinning and going in circles through the electromagnetic field, the splash that waves of light make should vary, but when this was tested, no difference could be found. So many scientists dropped the ocean analogy and stuck to measuring the movement, which is definitely real. In such an instrumentalist view, an electromagnetic field is just an area in which charged particles will be moved, in effect by magic, or 'spooky action at a distance', as Einstein called it.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 amAlso, why couldn’t/wouldn't there be an exchange of some kind of information, or cooperative activity, or other effect between particles and entities?
Who knows? It's a long shot, but maybe that's how quantum fields work.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Lacewing wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 pm Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter.
What causes matter to behave?
Matter has always 'behaved', and there is NO way to stop that 'behavior'.

What allows matter to always 'behave' is just the distance, space, or 'distant space', between and around matter.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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uwot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:43 am
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 amAll matter is made of particles, right?
Particles have energy, right?
So why wouldn’t things BE what they’re made of?
Well, the general consensus is that quantum fields are more fundamental than particles; but there are different ways to interpret 'quantum field'. One is to compare it to the ocean. Energy, as RC Saunders has pointed out, is the work needed to move things. If the ocean is completely flat, there is no energy in it and you won't go anywhere. Any disturbance has the power to move things; a wave for instance will bob you up and down; a whirlpool will draw you towards it. So a wave is analogous to light, a whirlpool is more like a particle. You can make a case that waves and whirlpools are made of energy, but without an ocean, neither would exist.
The problem with such analogies is that the electromagnetic field was assumed to have ocean like properties. If you are running into the waves, your combined speed is more than if you are running away. There's a bigger splash/more energy on the way in, than on the way back to the beach. The same should be true of the electromagnetic field if it is like the ocean. The reasoning was that since the earth is spinning and going in circles through the electromagnetic field, the splash that waves of light make should vary, but when this was tested, no difference could be found. So many scientists dropped the ocean analogy and stuck to measuring the movement, which is definitely real. In such an instrumentalist view, an electromagnetic field is just an area in which charged particles will be moved, in effect by magic, or 'spooky action at a distance', as Einstein called it.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 amAlso, why couldn’t/wouldn't there be an exchange of some kind of information, or cooperative activity, or other effect between particles and entities?
Who knows? It's a long shot, but maybe that's how quantum fields work.
Particle physicists distinguish between particle field and force field.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 am
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:50 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
What causes matter to behave?
Nothing, "causes," matter to behave...

If by, "causes matter to behave," is meant "what is the explanation or correct description of matter's behavior," it may said it is, "energy," so long is it is understood that energy is only an expression of the entity's behavior due to it's own mass, gravitational attraction, and electro-magnetic attracting and repulsion--not something independent of the physical entity's own nature.
All matter is made of particles, right?
Not really. Down to the level of atoms, science can probably be, "pictured," as, "made of particles," like little specks of physical matter, but science abandons that picture at the sub-atomic level. Not since the Rutherford and Bohr models of the atom have electrons, protons, and neutrons been pictured as particles:

Image

Atoms are no longer pictured as tiny particles, but more as, "clouds," or, "waves," as in the Schrodinger (or quantum) model of an atom.

Image
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 am Particles have energy, right?
Well, yes, but they also have mass, momentum, charge, shape, size, etc. but they are all only attributes, not things or stuff out of which things are made, like, "parts."
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 am So why wouldn’t things BE what they’re made of?
Everything that actually exists as a physical entity that can be perceived is whatever it is made of (and, of course, how those parts are assembled). Energy, mass, momentum, charge, however, are not, "parts." Not, "things," or, "stuff," anything is made of. They are attributes and characteristics.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:17 am Also, why couldn’t/wouldn't there be an exchange of some kind of information, or cooperative activity, or other effect between particles and entities?
I didn't say there couldn't, but you'll have to explain what you mean by information since that concept has become so distorted since Shannon's principles of measuring the fidelity of electronic transmission was called, "information theory," and what you mean by, "exchange," information. Physical things certainly do not, "talk to each other," at any level.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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uwot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:43 am...
Thank you for your well-communicated explanation!

Clearly, I do not know the agreed-upon/well-studied words/concepts to use because I'm not a scientist nor science-educated. Also, words can surely be insufficient/confusing for describing/suggesting anything beyond what we currently accept as known/understood. However, I am fascinated by potential implications of what can be understood/discovered, and I do my best to explore thoughtfully, using the language I know.

Perhaps I should have used the word 'movement' rather than 'energy' (?), when talking to scientific-speaking dudes. :) It seems to be agreed and measurable that there is movement at the particle level. It seems to me that movement requires energy. I also think that movement indicates exchange and flowing (with and through other things). Further, I think this is going on at every level (micro to macro) -- which might be more apparent to more people if they were keen on noticing it for themselves. These characteristics and this dynamic potential and nature of movement and connection and exchange seem, to me, to be of an energetic quality... and that's why I use the word 'energy'. I don't know of a word that fits better. ?

When I first heard about particle entanglement, I thought "Yes! We're discovering more about measurable connections!" There are connections/links at the smallest levels, and that potential measured there must surely be reflected throughout all. We're not just a bunch of isolated static lumps bumping into each other.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:03 pm...
Thanks for your response. I'm clearly not using the right language for a scientific view. But I'm trying to communicate ideas despite that... :lol: ...as I just described in my response to uwot.
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:03 pm you'll have to explain what you mean by information since that concept has become so distorted since Shannon's principles of measuring the fidelity of electronic transmission was called, "information theory," and what you mean by, "exchange," information. Physical things certainly do not, "talk to each other," at any level.
In basic terms (since it's difficult for me to communicate sufficiently with scientific lingo), if everything we see in our physical reality is made up of moving particles and waves and fields, it does not seem far-fetched to consider that there is some kind of cooperative/coordinated sharing/exchange, which is demonstrated by all that we see.

My reference to an exchange of 'information' is pointing to that which can be shared/accessed through connection/interaction.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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by RCSaunders » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:05 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:45 pm
...

Do you think everything is made up of energy? Even that which appears solid, static, or dead?

Not sure why you are asking me this question, or even where that idea comes from. It certainly isn't my idea.

Nothing is, "made up of energy." There is only matter. Energy is only a way of describing (and in physics, measuring) the behavior of matter. There is no energy sans matter. The idea that matter is made of energy comes from a misinterpretation of Einstein's E=MC^2, which really means any decrease in mass must be directly reflected in an increase in mass of something else due to its being accelerated. The, "energy," of an annihilated neutron in fission produces energy in the form of radiation and heat which are observable only as accelerated matter, and a concomitant increase in its mass.
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owl of Minerva:

Einstein's E=mc2 means: Energy = Mass times the speed of light squared.

On the most basic level, the equation says that energy and mass (matter) are interchangeable, they are different forms of the same thing.
Under the right conditions energy can become mass and vice versa.

Light is without mass and energy is momentum. Light can carry energy without mass. Forms of radiation all have energy, you can have energy without matter in empty space. Everything, including humans is simply energy stored in mass particle form.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:59 pm Einstein's E=mc2 means: Energy = Mass times the speed of light squared.

On the most basic level, the equation says that energy and mass (matter) are interchangeable, they are different forms of the same thing.
Under the right conditions energy can become mass and vice versa.

Light is without mass and energy is momentum. Light can carry energy without mass. Forms of radiation all have energy, you can have energy without matter in empty space. Everything, including humans is simply energy stored in mass particle form.
Seems to fit that which seems reasonable to me.

Further... if energy is throughout all, it is of a different mode/capability than the seemingly static forms and movements of the physical world we perceive. Something (as that) which demonstrates such variability and connectivity could surely be transmitting/exchanging/sharing "information" (even a type of awareness) throughout all. I wonder about resulting implications and potential of that.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

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owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:59 pm Einstein's E=mc2 means: Energy = Mass times the speed of light squared.

On the most basic level, the equation says that energy and mass (matter) are interchangeable, they are different forms of the same thing.
No, that is not what it means. Energy is not a, "thing," or, "substance." Energy is the behavior matter accelerated by a force, energy equals (one half the mass time the velocity squared), so the energy in the E=mc2 is not, "stuff," it is the change in the mass of enitities accelerated by the force component of that energy. If no mass is accelerated, there is no energy.
In special relativity, mass is not "converted" to energy, for all types of energy still retain their associated mass. Neither energy nor invariant mass can be destroyed in special relativity, and each is separately conserved over time in closed systems. Thus, a system's invariant mass may change only because invariant mass is allowed to escape, perhaps as light or heat. Thus, when reactions (whether chemical or nuclear) release energy in the form of heat and light, if the heat and light is not allowed to escape (the system is closed and isolated), the energy will continue to contribute to the system rest mass, and the system mass will not change. Only if the energy is released to the environment will the mass be lost; this is because the associated mass has been allowed out of the system, where it contributes to the mass of the surroundings. [E. F. Taylor; J. A. Wheeler (1992), Spacetime Physics, second edition, New York: W.H. Freeman and Company, pp. 248–249, ISBN 978-0-7167-2327-1]
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:59 pm Under the right conditions energy can become mass and vice versa.{/quote]
No it can't. See above reference.
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:59 pm Light is without mass and energy is momentum. Light can carry energy without mass. Forms of radiation all have energy, you can have energy without matter in empty space. Everything, including humans is simply energy stored in mass particle form.
That is just wrong. Photons have no, "rest mass," but there really is no such thing as a photon at rest, except potentially. Please see "Mass in special relativity."
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

Post by uwot »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:15 pmThank you for your well-communicated explanation!
Thank you. As Einstein said: Most of the fundamental ideas of science are essentially simple, and may, as a rule, be expressed in a language comprehensible to everyone.
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Re: Almost Nothing is Known about the Brain &

Post by owl of Minerva »

Lacewing wrote:

Seems to fit that which seems reasonable to me.

Further... if energy is throughout all, it is of a different mode/capability than the seemingly static forms and movements of the physical world we perceive. Something (as that) which demonstrates such variability and connectivity could surely be transmitting/exchanging/sharing "information" (even a type of awareness) throughout all. I wonder about resulting implications and potential of that.

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owl of Minerva:

There is some indication of what you mention in relation to force, life force; the L-field.

Also, as I recall, one physicist, it may be Dr. David Bohm of The University of London is at the forefront of seeing light as playing a major role in information carrying; as the potential of everything.
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