There is no "Reality-Gap"?

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Veritas Aequitas
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There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:22 am No sound argument has been advanced to attest the truth of a supposed "reality gap", which is a clumsy misunderstading of a irrelevant delay in sense-impressions.

As I explained, the issue in question is the casual relation, but the acknowledgement of such delay implies precisely that causal relation between the object and its perception that the anti-realist wants to deny.

And so I asked how could you explain the delay if the interaction between objects and its perception was not real?

And the answer was in the vicinity of: "I conditioned my belief in the delay to the assumptions of my relativistic framework", in other words, there's no real delay in itself, caused by anything in itself.
Does anyone agree with the above, i.e. there is no reality-Gap between what really-real and what is perceived-as-real or is supposedly real?

Here are some examples to Illustrate the existence of a reality-Gap.

1. Now that we have the Olympics and there are live telecasts of the Games to all parts of the world.
It is obvious there is a reality-Gap [time] between what really happened in Tokyo [t1] and what is observed on the TV screen by various audiences around the world [t2]. The fact that what is captured in the camera has to be transported through a medium to the audiences automatically implied a reality-Gap.

2. The fact that light or energy takes time to travel also implied there is a Reality-Gap between the Sun, Moon, galaxies and stars in real time and what is observed in the skies or via a telescope by observers.

3. While the reality-Gap related to the above physical things are very obvious, the point is even if the things you see within 3 feet, 1 feet, 1 inch away, there is still a gap of distance between the observer and the observed.
As such the apple on a table you perceived 3 feet away is never real in real time, but merely a historical apple albeit, in nano-seconds old. As such there is still a reality-gap between things 3 feet away from the observers.

4. Now even, if a person is pressing against something which seeming there is no physical distance, but there is still a distance between the nerves on the hand or body and the brain. Because of such distances and nano-seconds there is a reality-gap between the sensor and what-is-sensed.

The above illustration is the confirmation that a reality-Gap exists.
Agree or Disagree.

The point with causal relation in this case is irrelevant.
The light and energy from the TV screens caused the perception of the observers but there is no deny there is a reality-Gap between what really happened in Tokyo and by the time it is observed historically on the TV screen.

Whilst there is a reality gap between t1 [reality] and t2 [realization of t1], the question is whether what exists at t1 is really real or not?
Philosophical [critical] realists claim whatever is at t1 is an objective reality that exists absolutely independent of human conditions.
The point is since there is always a reality gap between t1 and t2, there is no way any human will every be able to confirm the truth of the supposed reality of t1.
Therefore the philosophical realists are merely speculating and presuppose what is at t1 is really real and is an independent objective reality.
They are in fact chasing an illusion that is merely speculated and presupposed.
Atla
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:01 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:22 am No sound argument has been advanced to attest the truth of a supposed "reality gap", which is a clumsy misunderstading of a irrelevant delay in sense-impressions.

As I explained, the issue in question is the casual relation, but the acknowledgement of such delay implies precisely that causal relation between the object and its perception that the anti-realist wants to deny.

And so I asked how could you explain the delay if the interaction between objects and its perception was not real?

And the answer was in the vicinity of: "I conditioned my belief in the delay to the assumptions of my relativistic framework", in other words, there's no real delay in itself, caused by anything in itself.
Does anyone agree with the above, i.e. there is no reality-Gap between what really-real and what is perceived-as-real or is supposedly real?

Here are some examples to Illustrate the existence of a reality-Gap.

1. Now that we have the Olympics and there are live telecasts of the Games to all parts of the world.
It is obvious there is a reality-Gap [time] between what really happened in Tokyo [t1] and what is observed on the TV screen by various audiences around the world [t2]. The fact that what is captured in the camera has to be transported through a medium to the audiences automatically implied a reality-Gap.

2. The fact that light or energy takes time to travel also implied there is a Reality-Gap between the Sun, Moon, galaxies and stars in real time and what is observed in the skies or via a telescope by observers.

3. While the reality-Gap related to the above physical things are very obvious, the point is even if the things you see within 3 feet, 1 feet, 1 inch away, there is still a gap of distance between the observer and the observed.
As such the apple on a table you perceived 3 feet away is never real in real time, but merely a historical apple albeit, in nano-seconds old. As such there is still a reality-gap between things 3 feet away from the observers.

4. Now even, if a person is pressing against something which seeming there is no physical distance, but there is still a distance between the nerves on the hand or body and the brain. Because of such distances and nano-seconds there is a reality-gap between the sensor and what-is-sensed.

The above illustration is the confirmation that a reality-Gap exists.
Agree or Disagree.

The point with causal relation in this case is irrelevant.
The light and energy from the TV screens caused the perception of the observers but there is no deny there is a reality-Gap between what really happened in Tokyo and by the time it is observed historically on the TV screen.

Whilst there is a reality gap between t1 [reality] and t2 [realization of t1], the question is whether what exists at t1 is really real or not?
Philosophical [critical] realists claim whatever is at t1 is an objective reality that exists absolutely independent of human conditions.
The point is since there is always a reality gap between t1 and t2, there is no way any human will every be able to confirm the truth of the supposed reality of t1.
Therefore the philosophical realists are merely speculating and presuppose what is at t1 is really real and is an independent objective reality.
They are in fact chasing an illusion that is merely speculated and presupposed.
You seem to be saying that time transcends all reality, like time was some kind of God to be dismissed. Einstein would like to have a word with you.

Why are closet solipsists like VA so obsessed with dismissing anything beyond their immediate reality, but then never stop to consider that their immediate reality could also be some sort of hallucination/simulation/brain-in-a-vat/etc.?
simplicity
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:01 amThe above illustration is the confirmation that a reality-Gap exists.
Agree or Disagree.
The value of understanding this is that it is should give pause to those who believe that what they perceive is "real." Instead, folks might consider that our limited intelligence takes available information and does the best it can [sort of like primitive cameras or recording devices].

IOW, although the "picture" we receive [based on the accuracy of our perceptions] is extremely low quality, it's the only game in town, so we make the best of it, the take-home message being that one must factor in these poor quality inputs into everything we do.

What makes sense to me is in not adding another layer of distortion by taking faulty data and then interpreting it poorly. What you end up with is a bunch of mishmash [what passes for intellectualism here on the planet].
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:01 amThe above illustration is the confirmation that a reality-Gap exists.
Agree or Disagree.
The value of understanding this is that it is should give pause to those who believe that what they perceive is "real." Instead, folks might consider that our limited intelligence takes available information and does the best it can [sort of like primitive cameras or recording devices].

IOW, although the "picture" we receive [based on the accuracy of our perceptions] is extremely low quality, it's the only game in town, so we make the best of it, the take-home message being that one must factor in these poor quality inputs into everything we do.

What makes sense to me is in not adding another layer of distortion by taking faulty data and then interpreting it poorly. What you end up with is a bunch of mishmash [what passes for intellectualism here on the planet].
What is unfortunate with our modern society is that most are unable to reflect on their actual state of viewing reality,
when Eastern philosophers since >5000 or maybe 10,000 years ago [Vedas] [albeit in small groups of the spiritual inclined] has been deliberating on the true and necessary state of reality.
From that small groups of enlightened individuals those insights into the higher truths of reality has evolved via different spiritual schools from mainstream to the fringes of Vajyarana, Zen and others.

You familiar with Buddhism Two Truths Doctrine?
  • In Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā the two truths doctrine is used to defend the identification of dependent origination (pratītyasamutpāda) with emptiness (śūnyatā):
    The Buddha's teaching of the Dharma is based on two truths: a truth of worldly convention and an ultimate truth.
    Those who do not understand the distinction drawn between these two truths do not understand the Buddha's profound truth.
    Without a foundation in the conventional truth the significance of the ultimate cannot be taught.
    Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, liberation is not achieved.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine#:
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Terrapin Station
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

There are time delays, if that's what we're talking about, but from a human psychological perspective, at least, for most phenomena, time delays shorter than, say, a 20th to a 100th of a second are effectively negligible. So at the speed of light, for anything within a distance of at least 60 miles, there's effectively no time delay between the phenomenon and our perception.

If we're talking about more slowly moving information--such as soundwaves--we can definitely notice time delays between lightwaves and soundwaves. A good example of this can be had if you're sitting at some of the further points from the stage at stadium concerts. You'll be far enough away that you can see the drummer hit drums/cymbals, etc. slightly prior to being able to hear it.

What the point of any of this would be I'm not sure.
simplicity
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by simplicity »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:03 am You familiar with Buddhism Two Truths Doctrine?
  • In Nāgārjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā the two truths doctrine is used to defend the identification of dependent origination (pratītyasamutpāda) with emptiness (śūnyatā):
    The Buddha's teaching of the Dharma is based on two truths: a truth of worldly convention and an ultimate truth.
    Those who do not understand the distinction drawn between these two truths do not understand the Buddha's profound truth.
    Without a foundation in the conventional truth the significance of the ultimate cannot be taught.
    Without understanding the significance of the ultimate, liberation is not achieved.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine#:
This is the story of the Buddha holding up a flower and transmitting direct prajñā to his disciple, Mahākāśyapa. For the rest, he developed Buddhism, a path dependent on ideas pointing the way toward realization.

The essence of the Buddha's teaching was meditation [dhyana (Pali), Zen (Japanese)].
simplicity
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by simplicity »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:17 pm There are time delays, if that's what we're talking about, but from a human psychological perspective, at least, for most phenomena, time delays shorter than, say, a 20th to a 100th of a second are effectively negligible. So at the speed of light, for anything within a distance of at least 60 miles, there's effectively no time delay between the phenomenon and our perception.

If we're talking about more slowly moving information--such as soundwaves--we can definitely notice time delays between lightwaves and soundwaves. A good example of this can be had if you're sitting at some of the further points from the stage at stadium concerts. You'll be far enough away that you can see the drummer hit drums/cymbals, etc. slightly prior to being able to hear it.

What the point of any of this would be I'm not sure.
The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].

A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality. This one idea opens up any entirely new perspective and is [really] the beginning of the liberation experience. All things are in constant flux and [because of this] are unknowable.

Imagine being relieved of the burden of having to figure everything out [which is impossible considering the notion that anything knowable is infinitely complex and always changing ].

In order to get everything, you must first give everything up.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

simplicity wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
Time is change, including motion. There's change, including motion.
A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality.
What would lead you to believe this?
All things are in constant flux . . .
Which would mean that there is time, since time is simply change. You can know change, by the way.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
simplicity wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
Time is change, including motion. There's change, including motion.
A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality.
What would lead you to believe this?
All things are in constant flux . . .
Which would mean that there is time, since time is simply change. You can know change, by the way.
Is "time is simply change" your invention?
If not, what references do you have to support your point.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:28 am Is "time is simply change" your invention?
I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter that someone else said something anyway. That doesn't give it more weight.
If not, what references do you have to support your point.
Philosophical analysis of what we're functionally referring to with time.
Age
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:01 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:22 am No sound argument has been advanced to attest the truth of a supposed "reality gap", which is a clumsy misunderstading of a irrelevant delay in sense-impressions.

As I explained, the issue in question is the casual relation, but the acknowledgement of such delay implies precisely that causal relation between the object and its perception that the anti-realist wants to deny.

And so I asked how could you explain the delay if the interaction between objects and its perception was not real?

And the answer was in the vicinity of: "I conditioned my belief in the delay to the assumptions of my relativistic framework", in other words, there's no real delay in itself, caused by anything in itself.
Does anyone agree with the above, i.e. there is no reality-Gap between what really-real and what is perceived-as-real or is supposedly real?

Here are some examples to Illustrate the existence of a reality-Gap.

1. Now that we have the Olympics and there are live telecasts of the Games to all parts of the world.
It is obvious there is a reality-Gap [time] between what really happened in Tokyo [t1] and what is observed on the TV screen by various audiences around the world [t2]. The fact that what is captured in the camera has to be transported through a medium to the audiences automatically implied a reality-Gap.

2. The fact that light or energy takes time to travel also implied there is a Reality-Gap between the Sun, Moon, galaxies and stars in real time and what is observed in the skies or via a telescope by observers.

3. While the reality-Gap related to the above physical things are very obvious, the point is even if the things you see within 3 feet, 1 feet, 1 inch away, there is still a gap of distance between the observer and the observed.
As such the apple on a table you perceived 3 feet away is never real in real time, but merely a historical apple albeit, in nano-seconds old. As such there is still a reality-gap between things 3 feet away from the observers.

4. Now even, if a person is pressing against something which seeming there is no physical distance, but there is still a distance between the nerves on the hand or body and the brain. Because of such distances and nano-seconds there is a reality-gap between the sensor and what-is-sensed.

The above illustration is the confirmation that a reality-Gap exists.
Agree or Disagree.

The point with causal relation in this case is irrelevant.
The light and energy from the TV screens caused the perception of the observers but there is no deny there is a reality-Gap between what really happened in Tokyo and by the time it is observed historically on the TV screen.

Whilst there is a reality gap between t1 [reality] and t2 [realization of t1], the question is whether what exists at t1 is really real or not?
Philosophical [critical] realists claim whatever is at t1 is an objective reality that exists absolutely independent of human conditions.
The point is since there is always a reality gap between t1 and t2, there is no way any human will every be able to confirm the truth of the supposed reality of t1.
Therefore the philosophical realists are merely speculating and presuppose what is at t1 is really real and is an independent objective reality.
They are in fact chasing an illusion that is merely speculated and presupposed.
If this is correct, then "veritas aequitas" is, IN FACT, just chasing an illusion, which is jest merely speculated and presupposed.
Age
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:17 pm There are time delays, if that's what we're talking about, but from a human psychological perspective, at least, for most phenomena, time delays shorter than, say, a 20th to a 100th of a second are effectively negligible. So at the speed of light, for anything within a distance of at least 60 miles, there's effectively no time delay between the phenomenon and our perception.

If we're talking about more slowly moving information--such as soundwaves--we can definitely notice time delays between lightwaves and soundwaves. A good example of this can be had if you're sitting at some of the further points from the stage at stadium concerts. You'll be far enough away that you can see the drummer hit drums/cymbals, etc. slightly prior to being able to hear it.

What the point of any of this would be I'm not sure.
The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].

A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality. This one idea opens up any entirely new perspective and is [really] the beginning of the liberation experience. All things are in constant flux and [because of this] are unknowable.
If ALL things are "unknowable", then HOW do you KNOW this?

And, if what you are perceiving is NOT Reality, then HOW do you KNOW this, and, what IS 'Reality', EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm Imagine being relieved of the burden of having to figure everything out [which is impossible considering the notion that anything knowable is infinitely complex and always changing ].

In order to get everything, you must first give everything up.
WHY do the ones who CLAIM that it is IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW ANY thing CLAIM that they KNOW that this is ABSOLUTELY TRUE?
Age
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm
simplicity wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 pm The assumption here is that there is something called time [which there really isn't].
Time is change, including motion. There's change, including motion.
A profound game-changer is when you realize that what you are perceiving is NOT Reality.
What would lead you to believe this?
All things are in constant flux . . .
Which would mean that there is time, since time is simply change.
You, ONCE AGAIN, keep FORGETTING that the CONCLUSION that "time is simply change" is what 'time' is TO YOU, which is NOT necessarily what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY True, Right, and Correct, AT ALL.

You REALLY do have this very bad habit "terrapin station" of ASSUMING that how you see and define 'things', then this is thee One and ONLY version and way.

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 pm You can know change, by the way.
Age
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:45 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:28 am Is "time is simply change" your invention?
I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter that someone else said something anyway. That doesn't give it more weight.
If not, what references do you have to support your point.
Philosophical analysis of what we're functionally referring to with time.
Is that your OWN, so called, "philosophical analysis"?
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no "Reality-Gap"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Reality as with everything that is human, is based upon our senses. The universe is that thing that created those senses, if in no other way through physics, chemistry, electricity (EMF), etc. Thus the universe is us and we are the universe.

Though the preceding is true, we've had a need to evolve, as we started from the simplest of life. So we learn/sense and build upon that learning/sensing to amass knowledge, both physically and psychologically. There are many things that currently we can neither sense nor know. Since we do not currently know or sense everything it can be said that we are relatively young, if old is to know and sense everything that is this universe.

Obviously then it can be said that there is a gap between our current level of sensing/knowing relative to completely sensing/knowing. This does not negate, cancel or void our current learning level as it's just one of many stepping stones along the necessary course to attain sensing/knowing everything.

Reality thus, for us humans, is the current state of our evolution. Considering this there is no gap in our reality, it can only ever be the position of our current learning curve, as that is the reality of what it is in being human at this particular juncture. In a vast universe, we are relatively young. The only gap is from our current position in learning/sensing to knowing/sensing everything. What we sense is reality, yet incomplete, as we have a long way to go before we evolve to knowing/sensing everything that is this universe.

The gap is what we don't yet know or can't yet sense, it's not that we are somehow isolated from reality, the reality is that we exist as we do, however humans may define it, it really makes no difference.

The universe is us, we are the universe, though currently young and relatively simple, we are evolving. This is our reality. Any so called gap can only be about completeness, not that what we currently sense/know is somehow flawed or removed from reality.



Note: I apologize for some redundancy, I don't take the time to edit for smoothness of thought conveyance.
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